Why don't I like Honda K20's

[KingK_series]

Getting back to the engine

- another issue I do not like is that like the K series the block is open topped, this has several implications for the engine, and is addressed by some engine builders with "block guard" or the top hat Datron sleeves, either way it is a design feature that needs addressing - in both engines.

[tut]

another reason not to like the Honda conversion, is this weakness in the 6 speed box

Simon, that is utter nonsense! One of the most reliable and over-engineered gearboxes I have ever worked with. It's a shame you spoil your great technical posts with the clearly biased nonsense.

The only problems I have ever seen with Honda boxes is where people have used the wrong oil.

How reliable are Quaife PG1s that make your tuned rover lumps comparable to Honda conversions?

Dan

Have to agree with Dan there Simon, after hundreds of thousands of miles on track and road with N1 and N3, neither the engine or gear box have ever missed a beat. As most on here can testify, they are two of the most used and abused Honda engined Elises on the Planet, so regardless of your technical problems with the K20, you should be taking this into consideration.

I have followed your technical posts with interest, doubt if many know the K better than yourself, but you seem to be reluctant to acknowledge how the K20 actually performs in cars such as ours.

tut

[KingK_series]

another reason not to like the Honda conversion, is this weakness in the 6 speed box

Simon, that is utter nonsense! One of the most reliable and over-engineered gearboxes I have ever worked with. It's a shame you spoil your great technical posts with the clearly biased nonsense.

The only problems I have ever seen with Honda boxes is where people have used the wrong oil.

How reliable are Quaife PG1s that make your tuned rover lumps comparable to Honda conversions?

Dan

Have to agree with Dan there Simon, after hundreds of thousands of miles on track and road with N1 and N3, neither the engine or gear box have ever missed a beat. As most on here can testify, they are two of the most used and abused Honda engined Elises on the Planet, so regardless of your technical problems with the K20, you should be taking this into consideration.

I have followed your technical posts with interest, doubt if many know the K better than yourself, but you seem to be reluctant to acknowledge how the K20 actually performs in cars such as ours.

tut

- yes and my engines never miss a beat, except on the sole occasion of being buzzed [lot 2006] and then rebuilt - the point is you can spend a lot of money to have a very very heavy honda put in, or you can send a lot of money to have K series really badly built [and blow] or you can spend money and have a really reliable light K series.

follow the two threads -

[KingK_series]

I have followed your technical posts with interest, doubt if many know the K better than yourself, but you seem to be reluctant to acknowledge how the K20 actually performs in cars such as ours.

tut

And to answer this directly - I have driven several na honda Elises now. Yes they are ok, but really not special, the engines are not free revving like mine, they are not particularly powerful, you CAN feel the extra weight in the back, and the gearshift is dreadful.


Just keep following the posts and all will be revealed.....

[KingK_series]

Here is another thing I don't like;-

the crank carrier - at last following on from the K series and using this much stiffer arrangement unlike the earlier Honda B series engine or the current former Duratec with their old fashioned bearing caps, has cast in steel inserts through the mains - why????

Do K's need that - NO, Do F1 engines or LMP engines need that - No

it just adds a huge amount of weight.

See pic from one of my Blown Elise conversion K 20's

[KingK_series]

Another design feature I do not like -

the exhaust ports on 1 and 4 are offset from the bore centers, causing flow interference on these cylinders. Thus this head notoriously does not flow as well as the head on the B series engine that the K20 replaced. Not an engine breaking problem, but a design failing, that is both unnecessary, and that I do not like .

[Scuffers]

This is my totally standard S1, bar a baffled SS backbox, I will weigh that and get comp to OE. With 15L fuel.

time for another picture:

we can all play this game....(Supercharged, Intercooled std K20, lap record holding Elise)

[KingK_series]

This is my totally standard S1, bar a baffled SS backbox, I will weigh that and get comp to OE. With 15L fuel.

time for another picture:

we can all play this game....(Supercharged, Intercooled std K20, lap record holding Elise)

I see you see the coup de grace coming for your honda K20a2.......!

so I take it by publishing that pic against the corner wts of my S1 with no car weight reduction at all, that you are no longer claiming the Honda engine is a mere 15kg heavier than a K?


or that your repeated claims on seloc that a K20 weighs 115kg, is in fact the truth?

[Dipper]

I have followed your technical posts with interest, doubt if many know the K better than yourself, but you seem to be reluctant to acknowledge how the K20 actually performs in cars such as ours.

tut

And to answer this directly - I have driven several na honda Elises now. Yes they are ok, but really not special, the engines are not free revving like mine, they are not particularly powerful, you CAN feel the extra weight in the back, and the gearshift is dreadful.


Just keep following the posts and all will be revealed.....

This is my totally standard S1, bar a baffled SS backbox, I will weigh that and get comp to OE. With 15L fuel.

time for another picture:

we can all play this game....(Supercharged, Intercooled std K20, lap record holding Elise)

I see you see the coup de grace coming for your honda K20a2.......!

so I take it by publishing that pic against the corner wts of my S1 with no car weight reduction at all, that you are no longer claiming the Honda engine is a mere 15kg heavier than a K?


or that your repeated claims on seloc that a K20 weighs 115kg, is in fact the truth?

I have to take issue with your comment on the Honda gearshift. Mine is light, short and accurate. I never notice its there as it just works.

And 228bhp without opening the standard lump is hardly "not particularly powerful"

[KingK_series]

I have to take issue with your comment on the Honda gearshift. Mine is light, short and accurate. I never notice its there as it just works.

And 228bhp without opening the standard lump is hardly "not particularly powerful"

- that's the first I've heard anyone say that - even the owners of the Honda cars I've driven have complained about the shift

- but glad you are happy

however I'd also say a K isn't particularly powerful at 228bhp in terms of what it is capable of, - reliably, for less spend than a turnkey Honda conversion, and without dragging around the enormous extra weight that the Honda+box conversion etc means putting in your car, which will hurt the power to weight ratio massively unless you spend shedloads on bag tanks, TMR wheels, lightweight clams, seats, Pilbeam uprights, calipers, etc etc etc - but which anybody can spend on a K engined car too and end up with a hell of a lot less than 715kg.

[scottishselise]

I have to take issue with your comment on the Honda gearshift. Mine is light, short and accurate. I never notice its there as it just works.

And 228bhp without opening the standard lump is hardly "not particularly powerful"

- that's the first I've heard anyone say that - even the owners of the Honda cars I've driven have complained about the shift

Really? I have heard and experience (with two Honda's) the exact opposite.

[KingK_series]

I have to take issue with your comment on the Honda gearshift. Mine is light, short and accurate. I never notice its there as it just works.

And 228bhp without opening the standard lump is hardly "not particularly powerful"

- that's the first I've heard anyone say that - even the owners of the Honda cars I've driven have complained about the shift

Really? I have heard and experience (with two Honda's) the exact opposite.

Well there's a thing -! happy for you, but on the cars I drove the gearlever did not center and finding each gear was difficult, though no doubt with ownership rather than a half hour drive you'd get used to it.

- I admit it is a minor issue though, nothing like the other issues with the K20A2 on this thread.

[philthy]

I can remember saying to JJ when he got his Honda Elise, the conversion is worth it for the gearchange alone...
The rover box in my S1 Exige was like stirring soup in comparison even with new cables and linkage.

To be honest I'm losing interest in this thread the more it becomes lop sided

[woody]

The rover box in my S1 Exige was like stirring soup in comparison even with new cables and linkage.

Off topic, but I can't beleive how much better the shift, albeit sitting static, feels in the MG TF (they changed it for the TF apparently) compared to an elise. Always thought an elise was ok, but the MG is very good. Looks like it uses a completely different set-up though.

[Scuffers]

however I'd also say a K isn't particularly powerful at 228bhp in terms of what it is capable of, - reliably, for less spend than a turnkey Honda conversion, and without dragging around the enormous extra weight that the Honda+box conversion etc means putting in your car, which will hurt the power to weight ratio massively unless you spend shedloads on bag tanks, TMR wheels, lightweight clams, seats, Pilbeam uprights, calipers, etc etc etc - but which anybody can spend on a K engined car too and end up with a hell of a lot less than 715kg.

I see the usual rhetoric with a splash of in-accuracies thrown in for good measure.

some facts about that car:

1) it has not got (and has never had at any time) Pilbeam anything on it.
2) It has got Eliseparts 4 pot callipers over 330x28mm disks all round, these complete are actually marginally heavier than the standard 282mm disks and callipers as a package (they are somewhat bigger though!)
3) Yes, it does have a bag tank, it's a race car, show me an FT3 certified metal tank! (for an Elise)
4) it's got a ~380Hp K20 complete with (heavy) supercharger and intercooler, yes, it weighs more than the original K, but it also makes double the power (reliably) and it's not double the weight.

as usual, you can bang on about your K this and your K that, but in all the past years, you have yet to produce a single engine that's actually won anything (or actually lasted more than 5 minutes).

You previously stated you had an engine in Aus, I will ask again, WHO'S IS IT?

I am assuming it's Andrew Howell?