Steering Feel - Why are modern cars so bad?

[rawsco]

When looking at buying the new barge I optimistically test drove a number of sporty modern estates, Merc, BMW, Audi, etc all were dead through the wheel.

Just what is it, technically about modern steering that ruins feel? I know electric power steering is a culprit but surely manufacturers can do better, the press moan about it in almost every review so you'd think they'd invest in it as getting it right transforms a car.

So what is it? a combination of typically wide low profile tyres with large rims, with very narrow slip range, huge rotational mass in the steering columns, rack and suspension geometry?

Are we just corrupted as lotus owners?

[j2 lot]

Are we just corrupted as lotus owners?

This.

[graeme]

People said the same about power steering, but eventually some manufacturers got that dialled in nicely. We're now in the early days of electric steering. It has the potential to provide as much if not more feel than a mechanical setup, but isn't there yet. It's too new. Like going back to an early 2000s sat-nav. It just feels old and unusable. 10 more years and electric steering will be the bees knees, I predict.

[rawsco]

Yeah, however, back in the day... I had a my04 Sti Imprezza, not known for steering feel however I remember it being quite good with lively feedback and thinking if this is bad what is good like! As a lotus owner I know know. But the trend definitely is for the worse, and in much more expensive metal than the Impreza.

[rawsco]

People said the same about power steering, but eventually some manufacturers got that dialled in nicely. We're now in the early days of electric steering. It has the potential to provide as much if not more feel than a mechanical setup, but isn't there yet. It's too new. Like going back to an early 2000s sat-nav. It just feels old and unusable. 10 more years and electric steering will be the bees knees, I predict.

2x BMW 335 with hydraulic as opposed to the usual electric in the lesser models and they were poor too.

I had a 1st gen BMW Mini Cooper S, one of the first cars with electric power steering and I don't remember t being bad either. Although that system may have just been a traditional hydraulic rack with an electric pump rather than off the crank. I can't remember.

In 10 years the steering will be connected to a computer. Maybe that's it manufactures just aren't prioritising it as they see humans driving as old hat. Electric PS is just a playground for servo steering.

Is it the Honda NSX or Lexus something or other that actually doesn't have a physical connection to the rack?

[graeme]

Yeah, don't talk to me about Impreza steering feel... Maybe if I throw yet more money at it...

I think electric "steer-by-wire" steering is the future. In the good old days when the only thing directing the car round the corner was the front wheels, mechanical feel made sense. But how do you translate multiple clever e-diffs, rear-wheel steering and a million computers braking the inside wheels into something that makes sense to a tuned-in driver through their hands? What should that feel like?

Steering isn't just about which way the wheels are pointing any more. I think that's the root of the problem, and the technology exists to solve it, but it'll take time and numerous iterations before it feels like something that makes sense to both grannies and Lotus drivers.

Ultimately, I think they should just make every input and output user-controlled and crowd-source the problem. Let the aftermarket tuners solve it. There are far more smart people in the world than there are in Stuttgart. Buy your M5 car, then get your steering "remapped" how you like it, or download the top 5 user-rated steering configs from the internet. That's the future.

[Lazydonkey]

Maybe i look at things too simply but....

Manufacturers are incentivised to build products that people want to buy. If they start producing sh*t that doesn't sell they go bust.

I suspect the answer to sh*t steering feel is the same as the "why are cars getting heavy?" "why don't we have manual sports cars anymore" ......quite simply it's because people still buy cars with sh*t steering feel as they don't view is as important.

Moreover i don't think "modern" drivers know what good looks or feels like when it comes to steering. Take someone from a 300bhp fwd hatch with a dead front end and put them in an elise and they will moan about how unsafe it feels at 70mph......mainly cos the wheel actually moves! As a result i'd be inclined to think real steering feel could actually be viewed as a flaw in many users eyes.

2p

[flyingscot68]

We're all in a very small minority here I think.

The vast majority of people don't care about steering feel, their main concern for a car that isn't just a family box is - The badge, how fast it is, how pretty it is, how small a monthly payment they can get it for and how much they perceive it impresses their friends and neighbors.

[Sanjøy]

Tyres sizes, the GTS has 235 on the front the 340r 195.

[woody]

People said the same about power steering, but eventually some manufacturers got that dialled in nicely. We're now in the early days of electric steering. It has the potential to provide as much if not more feel than a mechanical setup, but isn't there yet. It's too new. Like going back to an early 2000s sat-nav. It just feels old and unusable. 10 more years and electric steering will be the bees knees, I predict.

2x BMW 335 with hydraulic as opposed to the usual electric in the lesser models and they were poor too.

I had a 1st gen BMW Mini Cooper S, one of the first cars with electric power steering and I don't remember t being bad either. Although that system may have just been a traditional hydraulic rack with an electric pump rather than off the crank. I can't remember.

In 10 years the steering will be connected to a computer. Maybe that's it manufactures just aren't prioritising it as they see humans driving as old hat. Electric PS is just a playground for servo steering.

Is it the Honda NSX or Lexus something or other that actually doesn't have a physical connection to the rack?

1st Gen cooper S has electro-hydraulic steering; an electric pump for the hydraulic system in place of an engine powered pump. So in effect it feels no different to hydraulic steering.

Much of the point of ePAS is efficiency; you don't have the pump on the engine. Having electro-hydraulic steering removes this but is still more complex and therefore more expensive to manufacture & install than purely electric steering.

FWIW, my BMW 130i is a facelift car with ePAS (pre-facelift has purely hydraulic steering) with a few other tweaks it gets an alleged 4mpg more than the pre-facelift. I wasn’t sure of the steering at first but have grown to accept it. The M135i I test drove before buying the 130i (so I was coming from a hydraulic focus) I couldn’t get on with. These have a dynamic steering system as standard which varies the amount of lock applied for any given input. On the test drive, in I think efficiency mode TBF, I could feel the wheels doing something different to my inputs ion a brand new car. I felt like a car with a badly worn rack and was the point where I decided I wasn’t buying an M135i, up until that point it was all I had considered. No doubt others have no issues with it. I later test drove a 330e with Pete (from SE), it the steering felt lifeless on it.

Wheel offsets and suspension geometry also play a large part in (removing) steering feel, not just the power assistance method.

[Shug]

Moreover i don't think "modern" drivers know what good looks or feels like when it comes to steering. Take someone from a 300bhp fwd hatch with a dead front end and put them in an elise and they will moan about how unsafe it feels at 70mph......mainly cos the wheel actually moves! As a result i'd be inclined to think real steering feel could actually be viewed as a flaw in many users eyes.

Yup -nail on head with that comment. Elaine grew up driving Audis (with one Honda slid in there) When she first drove an Elise, she thought it was hyperactive and didn't trust that it wasn't going to throw her in the weeds. Took some trusting what I was saying about it and an extended day long test drive in an S2 (which wasn't nearly as hyperactive as my S1 was) for it to twig with her. Then she loved it and ended up using one as basically a daily for 6 years.

It's getting past the mental block that feel isn't the car trying to take you places, it's just telling you things. As you say, something that a whole generation won't get and therefore why fix something that to 90% of the driving public isn't broken.

[woody]

Moreover i don't think "modern" drivers know what good looks or feels like when it comes to steering. Take someone from a 300bhp fwd hatch with a dead front end and put them in an elise and they will moan about how unsafe it feels at 70mph......mainly cos the wheel actually moves! As a result i'd be inclined to think real steering feel could actually be viewed as a flaw in many users eyes.

Yup -nail on head with that comment. Elaine grew up driving Audis (with one Honda slid in there) When she first drove an Elise, she thought it was hyperactive and didn't trust that it wasn't going to throw her in the weeds. Took some trusting what I was saying about it and an extended day long test drive in an S2 (which wasn't nearly as hyperactive as my S1 was) for it to twig with her. Then she loved it and ended up using one as basically a daily for 6 years.

It's getting past the mental block that feel isn't the car trying to take you places, it's just telling you things. As you say, something that a whole generation won't get and therefore why fix something that to 90% of the driving public isn't broken.

There's an argument to say the S1 has too much feedback, or rather, feeds-back superfluous info. They do have rather a lot of bump steer (Mine may be worse TBF due to the lower 100/110 ride height).

[Victor Meldrew]

I have had this discussion many times with my wife, every time she suggested selling the S1 and buying something that "we all can enjoy". There simply isn't anything else out there anywhere near my budget with four seats that will feel as nimble as an Elise.

What they have taken away in steering feel they have given back with the latest generation of tires. Could be my imagination but modern tires have more slip before they let go completely. You feel it more from the movement of the car than the feedback on the wheel

[ScottJ-PS]

Maybe i look at things too simply but....

Manufacturers are incentivised to build products that people want to buy. If they start producing sh*t that doesn't sell they go bust.

I suspect the answer to sh*t steering feel is the same as the "why are cars getting heavy?" "why don't we have manual sports cars anymore" ......quite simply it's because people still buy cars with sh*t steering feel as they don't view is as important.

Moreover i don't think "modern" drivers know what good looks or feels like when it comes to steering. Take someone from a 300bhp fwd hatch with a dead front end and put them in an elise and they will moan about how unsafe it feels at 70mph......mainly cos the wheel actually moves! As a result i'd be inclined to think real steering feel could actually be viewed as a flaw in many users eyes.

2p

Too true. Everytime I drive a modern car I think its sh*t, 2 ton tank with no feel. (And the prat in a £99 suit always tells me how cheap it is on monthly PCP) So until something better comes along I'll be keeping my Gen 1 Cooper that costs £500 every MOT but zero depreciation, my mk3 MX5 cos the mk4 has gone electric, and my Elise until I can afford an Evora.

PS; I taught my wife to drive as recently as 2003 in a classic Mini 1000cc with a choke. She then got a Lotus M100 Elan when passing her test. Next as a shopping trolley Punto Sporting which had so much body roll compared to what she was used too that she nearly rolled it the first day and spent a year telling me to sell the sh*t LOL, thats when we got the Gen 1 MINI .

[BiggestNizzy]

I am sure it has been mentioned before but cars are made for people who buy them, your typical motorist wants to be isolated in a bubble not dealing with anything remotely to do with driving. For the selected few who do they buy from the more niche manufactures.