Double glazing.

[pete]

Thinking about getting some of this new fangled double glazing - does anyone have a recommendation?

[Dominic]

Get triple

Edit to add, My parents have a Victorian sandstone house (similar to yours) and went from double to triple and noticed a big improvement. Okay, it was going from 1980's double glazing, but still, they reckon triple is the future.

[rossybee]

Avoid some of the big names such as Everest/CR Smith etc unless you like spending a whole day with a salesman who is loathed to leave your home without your signature on a legally-binding document.....

The only caveat to this is if you can drive a mega-bargain, like 70-80% off original quote.

[David]

Avoid some of the big names such as Everest/CR Smith etc unless you like spending a whole day with a salesman who is loathed to leave your home without your signature on a legally-binding document.....

The only caveat to this is if you can drive a mega-bargain, like 70-80% off original quote.

I've used CR Smith a couple of times and must say they did a good job - and I'm quite fussy about these things. What's going for them is experience - their surveyors are good and I received some excellent advice that made a huge difference to the end result. The problems were discussed openly and solutions suggested with a degree of professionalism I didn't expect either.

Our neighbor, on the other hand, went with a local joiner. The units were of similar quality but the fitting was poor - everything was under size (I guess to make it easier) and loads of trim to fill the gaps.

[a4drk]

Advanced Windows in EK are good.
they do triple glazing
so do
- Dalmation Windows
http://dalmatianwindows-px.rtrk.co.uk/? ... ign=double

Ask for Douglas - tell him David kyle recomended them

[mwmackenzie]

Tripple is no better than double! there I've said it.... the modern double is a rated for energy so every bit as good as tripple, where tripple comes into its own is sound insulation but for that to be effective I've been told the centre pane needs to be a different thickness to the other 2, not sure why, would love to hear Robin's thoughts on this! Also the Tripple is a third heavier as a unit which in turn puts more stress on the ironmongery and ultimatelt can cause more problems with sagging hinges and bad fit over time than an efficeint double glazed window.

When the saleman come in ask him to explain a brewsters fringe to you, if he can't explain it throw him out as he doesn't know his stuff! (It's there the light is at a certain point in the sky and you're looking at the glass at the exact angle you see like an oil mark, spectrum if you like) It's a natural phenomena in glass.

If he says his windows are A rated they're not! They can't be, he's in Scotland which means he needs trickle vents in the window which will screw any overall u-value! The frame plastics will most likely be A-rated as will their double/tripple glazed units but as a whole, they can't be... If their product frame material/section or glass units aren't A rated tell him to leave as he's selling cheap sh*t... Spacer bar between the 2 or 3 glass panels should be on a non conductive material and not aluminium or any metal, cavity should be filled with argon gas too... Planitherm plus is a decent product glass wise...

Happy shopping, I hope you enjoy the company of bullshiiting salesmen! If they can drop their prices by 30/40/50/70% if you can help them with a fit date they've had a cancellation on they were trying to rip you off in the first instance as if you'd agreed the inflated price he'd have taken your money and got a nice bonus lol.... expect teh average A rated window to cost about £500-£600 fully fitted! less that £500 qusetion the product and fitting, over say £600-650 ask for discount if he came in at £800+ per window and can drop massively after speaking to his manager, you're being fleeced, probably now getting a lesser product than the one you've been shown or the product was only ever worth the lesser price but he was hoping to skin you the higher price and get a pat on the back and a bonus back at the office where they're all now having a good old laugh at you......

all the best

Mark

[neil]

Are you after UPVC or wooden frames? If you're wanting wood I'd recommend Mozolowski & Murray. Not the cheapest but they'll not need replaced in your lifetime.

[robin]

sound insulation but for that to be effective I've been told the centre pane needs to be a different thickness to the other 2, not sure why, would love to hear Robin's thoughts on this!
Mark

I have no idea, but imagine it's to do with resonance ...

Membranes like glass will conduct sound at their resonant frequency. As the frequency moves away from resonance they will conduct sound less well, though this trend reverses as you approach each even harmonic.

For example if your glass pane resonates at 100Hz then it will reject 150Hz pretty well, but will admit 200Hz, then reject 250-350, then admit 400Hz etc. etc. Each successive harmonic attenuates more than the previous one, so by the time you get to the 10th harmonic you can pretty much ignore the effect.

The air in the cavity is compressed/expanded by the vibrations of the glass, which in turn applies forces to the next pane in the stack.

If the next pane in the stack has a very different resonant frequency then either the first pane will reject the sound or the second pane will.

If the third pane has the same resonance as the first then by definition it is different from the second and so any sound that passes the second will be further attenuated by the third.

I would think you could also dampen vibrations by using appropriately soft materials to clamp the glass (in the same way the quiet pedal works on the piano)

Cheers,
Robin

[pete]

Tripple is no better than double! there I've said it.... the modern double is a rated for energy so every bit as good as tripple, where tripple comes into its own is sound insulation but for that to be effective I've been told the centre pane needs to be a different thickness to the other 2, not sure why, would love to hear Robin's thoughts on this! Also the Tripple is a third heavier as a unit which in turn puts more stress on the ironmongery and ultimatelt can cause more problems with sagging hinges and bad fit over time than an efficeint double glazed window.

When the saleman come in ask him to explain a brewsters fringe to you, if he can't explain it throw him out as he doesn't know his stuff! (It's there the light is at a certain point in the sky and you're looking at the glass at the exact angle you see like an oil mark, spectrum if you like) It's a natural phenomena in glass.

If he says his windows are A rated they're not! They can't be, he's in Scotland which means he needs trickle vents in the window which will screw any overall u-value! The frame plastics will most likely be A-rated as will their double/tripple glazed units but as a whole, they can't be... If their product frame material/section or glass units aren't A rated tell him to leave as he's selling cheap sh*t... Spacer bar between the 2 or 3 glass panels should be on a non conductive material and not aluminium or any metal, cavity should be filled with argon gas too... Planitherm plus is a decent product glass wise...

Happy shopping, I hope you enjoy the company of bullshiiting salesmen! If they can drop their prices by 30/40/50/70% if you can help them with a fit date they've had a cancellation on they were trying to rip you off in the first instance as if you'd agreed the inflated price he'd have taken your money and got a nice bonus lol.... expect teh average A rated window to cost about £500-£600 fully fitted! less that £500 qusetion the product and fitting, over say £600-650 ask for discount if he came in at £800+ per window and can drop massively after speaking to his manager, you're being fleeced, probably now getting a lesser product than the one you've been shown or the product was only ever worth the lesser price but he was hoping to skin you the higher price and get a pat on the back and a bonus back at the office where they're all now having a good old laugh at you......

all the best

Mark

That's excellent Mark cheers. (Thanks to the others too - really appreciate it).

[kerryxeg]

I looked into this in great detail 4 years ago for my house. At that time triple glazing was marginally better than double with a low emistivity coating, argon gas and I think it was a 16 mm gap. The low e coating which I think is also called K glass by picking ton is becoming pretty standard combined with less conductive argon gas it nearly matched the triple performance. I think the extra for triple could be worth it if you have a super efficient house, if not I doubt it's worth the extra.

I went with hardwood frames, so it was best to go with a joiner. The one I used was a specialist and they were able to show me examples of full frames. Worth asking to see the quality of their work if it is something bespoke.

One technical learning was the inclusion of rim insulation between the frame and the wall to prevent a cold bridge. Possibly now a planing requirement for energy eff but I hadn't seen that before. Looks like silver layered bubble wrap.

[kerryxeg]

I looked into this in great detail 4 years ago for my house. At that time triple glazing was marginally better than double with a low emistivity coating, argon gas and I think it was a 16 mm gap. The low e coating which I think is also called K glass by picking ton is becoming pretty standard combined with less conductive argon gas it nearly matched the triple performance. I think the extra for triple could be worth it if you have a super efficient house, if not I doubt it's worth the extra.

I went with hardwood frames, so it was best to go with a joiner. The one I used was a specialist and they were able to show me examples of full frames. Worth asking to see the quality of their work if it is something bespoke.

One technical learning was the inclusion of rim insulation between the frame and the wall to prevent a cold bridge. Possibly now a planing requirement for energy eff but I hadn't seen that before. Looks like silver layered bubble wrap.

[Stephen]

Is triple not only better because it has a double air gap. Of you have double with the same overall gap it's better as the glass in the middle is more conductive than an air or vacuum gap.

PS most heat is list from buildings as a consequence of air change. Insisting the window apertures is small beer.
What I would say it's that if you could fit shutters like they have in alone chalets that really would help.

[point n squirt]

Tripple is no better than double! there I've said it.... the modern double is a rated for energy so every bit as good as tripple, where tripple comes into its own is sound insulation but for that to be effective I've been told the centre pane needs to be a different thickness to the other 2, not sure why, would love to hear Robin's thoughts on this! Also the Tripple is a third heavier as a unit which in turn puts more stress on the ironmongery and ultimatelt can cause more problems with sagging hinges and bad fit over time than an efficeint double glazed window.

When the saleman come in ask him to explain a brewsters fringe to you, if he can't explain it throw him out as he doesn't know his stuff! (It's there the light is at a certain point in the sky and you're looking at the glass at the exact angle you see like an oil mark, spectrum if you like) It's a natural phenomena in glass.

If he says his windows are A rated they're not! They can't be, he's in Scotland which means he needs trickle vents in the window which will screw any overall u-value! The frame plastics will most likely be A-rated as will their double/tripple glazed units but as a whole, they can't be... If their product frame material/section or glass units aren't A rated tell him to leave as he's selling cheap sh*t... Spacer bar between the 2 or 3 glass panels should be on a non conductive material and not aluminium or any metal, cavity should be filled with argon gas too...
Happy shopping, I hope you enjoy the company of bullshiiting salesmen! If they can drop their prices by 30/40/50/70% if you can help them with a fit date they've had a cancellation on they were trying to rip you off in the first instance as if you'd agreed the inflated price he'd have taken your money and got a nice bonus lol.... expect teh average A rated window to cost about £500-£600 fully fitted! less that £500 qusetion the product and fitting, over say £600-650 ask for discount if he came in at £800+ per window and can drop massively after speaking to his manager, you're being fleeced, probably now getting a lesser product than the one you've been shown or the product was only ever worth the lesser price but he was hoping to skin you the higher price and get a pat on the back and a bonus back at the office where they're all now having a good old laugh at you......

all the best

Mark

What Mark Says but if your in the know you can have a good job for £400 per window depending on sizes . Stay away from any in the news paper whole house for £1500 etc also some other company,s already mentioned in this thread I would not agree with I left them years ago for good reason pm me for more info and right people 25 yrs in the trade.

[Titanium S1 111S (gla)]

I looked at this recently for our Victorian sandstone house.

I was not prepared to get plastic, in my opinion it looks rubbish. It also became clear to me that people were quoting for different things. The cheaper end of the quotes were to pull out the original sashes, mess about a bit with the frames then mastic new double glazing sections in against the original sash box. In short a crap job which would probably have been worse than doing nothing.

So with the condition that the windows be wooden and sash and case I spoke to all of the usual suspects and got all of the usual BS. Some of the sales people were OK, just doing their job in the best way they could and no doubt in accordance with the manual. There were, however, some truly objectionable characters. Strangely the woman were worse than the men who generally accepted that I didn’t want their BS patter, that I wouldn’t be agreeing anything on the day and that if they wanted the job that they would measure the windows, go away, and send me their best and final price in writing.

Having gone through all of that and having got massive quotes I came to the conclusion that I simply could not afford to replace the windows.

As part of my wider renovation project I gutted the kitchen, took out a wall which was replaced with glass doors and insulated the whole place. Having done all of that I decided that I would replace the three windows in the kitchen even if I would not do the rest of the house and my builder / joiner recommended Blair’s windows in Greenock. Quotes duly came in and from memory they were circa £600 per window for timber double swing. Double swing is indistinguishable from S&C from the outside but opens by tilting rather than sliding. For reasons which are not important S&C would not work in the kitchen and they are marginally cheaper.

The windows seem to me to be very good quality, they weigh a ton and look the part. The mechanisms work well and the ironmongery looks and feels good.

My joiner installed the windows when he was on site anyway and I suppose it took him about half a day to do all three although that did not include the making good on the inside (or making up the window ledges) since the whole room was being relined anyway.

Under pressure from SWMBO I then got quotes from Blair’s for the rest of the house which again came in at an unaffordable £50k. That, of course, does not fit with the previous cost of supply of the three windows, the house has 23 windows.

Anyway, that is a very long way of saying that a stupidly large percentage (circa 70%) of the cost of double glazing appears to be tied up in fitting. My solution to that has been to order, supply only, from Blair’s and have my very good joiner fit them. Including all of the making good etc the joiner takes less than a day per window to install them which at a tradesman’s rate of say £200 per day with a bit added in for additional materials etc represents a cost saving of about 85% on the cost of installation.

We have not finished ours, I have ordered the windows in batches and have been having them done as we go from room to room refurbishing but the solution works for me on quality and cost.

Best of luck.

G

[mwmackenzie]

I looked at this recently for our Victorian sandstone house.

I was not prepared to get plastic, in my opinion it looks rubbish. It also became clear to me that people were quoting for different things. The cheaper end of the quotes were to pull out the original sashes, mess about a bit with the frames then mastic new double glazing sections in against the original sash box. In short a crap job which would probably have been worse than doing nothing.

So with the condition that the windows be wooden and sash and case I spoke to all of the usual suspects and got all of the usual BS. Some of the sales people were OK, just doing their job in the best way they could and no doubt in accordance with the manual. There were, however, some truly objectionable characters. Strangely the woman were worse than the men who generally accepted that I didn’t want their BS patter, that I wouldn’t be agreeing anything on the day and that if they wanted the job that they would measure the windows, go away, and send me their best and final price in writing.

Having gone through all of that and having got massive quotes I came to the conclusion that I simply could not afford to replace the windows.

As part of my wider renovation project I gutted the kitchen, took out a wall which was replaced with glass doors and insulated the whole place. Having done all of that I decided that I would replace the three windows in the kitchen even if I would not do the rest of the house and my builder / joiner recommended Blair’s windows in Greenock. Quotes duly came in and from memory they were circa £600 per window for timber double swing. Double swing is indistinguishable from S&C from the outside but opens by tilting rather than sliding. For reasons which are not important S&C would not work in the kitchen and they are marginally cheaper.

The windows seem to me to be very good quality, they weigh a ton and look the part. The mechanisms work well and the ironmongery looks and feels good.

My joiner installed the windows when he was on site anyway and I suppose it took him about half a day to do all three although that did not include the making good on the inside (or making up the window ledges) since the whole room was being relined anyway.

Under pressed from SWMBO I then got quotes from Blair’s for the rest of the house which again came in at an unaffordable £50k. That, of course, does not fit with the previous cost of supply of the three windows, the house has 23 windows.

Anyway, that is a very long way of saying that a stupidly large percentage (circa 70%) of the cost of double glazing appears to be tied up in fitting. My solution to that has been to order, supply only, from Blair’s and have my very good joiner fit them. Including all of the making good etc the joiner takes less than a day per window to install them which at a tradesman’s of say £200 per day with a bit added in for additional materials etc represents a cost saving of about 85% on the cost of installation.

We have not finished ours, I have ordered the windows in batches and have been having them done as we go from room to room refurbishing but the solution works for me on quality and cost.

Best of luck.

G

Yup, sash boxes should be removed! but you do get some nice Sliding Sash windows in PVC these days... Have a look at synseal vertical sliders.... I saw some in a customers house and didn't initially click when talking to him about other stuff in the room that they were PVC replacements...