Latest Tax Grab by SNP/Greens (Council tax)

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Mikie711
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Re: Latest Tax Grab by SNP/Greens (Council tax)

Post by Mikie711 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:13 am

Ferg wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:25 am
1% is far too big swing to be deliverable. Council tax should be based on service consumption. Bigger houses should pay more of course but value has bugger all to do with that. Judging house value as ability to pay higher tax is errant.
Why should they Ferg?
Our house is quite big, however council tax is for services provided and funded by local council and a charge for water and sewage. Ignoring the water and sewage how does the size of a property have any bearing on the amount of services consumed.
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Re: Latest Tax Grab by SNP/Greens (Council tax)

Post by c8rkh » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:09 pm

[/quote]

Why should they Ferg?
Our house is quite big, however council tax is for services provided and funded by local council and a charge for water and sewage. Ignoring the water and sewage how does the size of a property have any bearing on the amount of services consumed.
[/quote]

It doesn't, but let's be honest, the view is if you have a big house you must therefore have more disposable income so therefore the lefties want it to redistribute it to the lazy feckers who can't be arsed to get off their arses.
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Re: Latest Tax Grab by SNP/Greens (Council tax)

Post by campbell » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:06 am

I guess it’s the “ability to pay” vs “services consumed” argument.

In a perfect scenario, starting from scratch, how would we do it? Presumably just a broad brush levy from incomes? Then add devolved arrangements, regional variations, etc and you very quickly arrive at the spaghetti we have today.
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Re: Latest Tax Grab by SNP/Greens (Council tax)

Post by Stevoraith » Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:07 pm

I’d have a hybrid system.

It’s not a perfect rule but in general if you have a more expensive house you can afford to pay more so you should.
But also if there are more people living in the house you use more water, generate more waste etc so you should also pay more.

So why not keep the band system (although I agree it needs an overhaul- how much your house was worth in 1986 (or whenever it is) is becoming less relevant) but use it to determine how much you pay per person living in the house.

That way you would hopefully avoid the couple with no kids paying more than the family of six just because they live in a nice area but also the standard family of four in a £200k house would pay less than the family of four in a £500k house.

There’s probably a massive flaw in there somewhere but it might work.....

Although I’d just settle for them emptying my garden waste bin more often!
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Re: Latest Tax Grab by SNP/Greens (Council tax)

Post by Mikie711 » Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:17 pm

Stevoraith wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:07 pm

But also if there are more people living in the house you use more water, generate more waste etc so you should also pay more.
Not necessarily, many larger rural properties have private water and sewage so pay to maintain their own services and so draw less on council resources than someone living in town.

To be fair I have issue with the whole tax system, always have always will. Nobody will be able to convince me that because you earn more you should pay at a higher rate. The percentage should be fixed, same for all. By earning more you will pay more but propotonaly more. Most of us on this forum have worked hard to get where each of us are today and we don't owe anyone anything for that.

I had a troubled childhood and ended up on the street, there was little or no help to get you back on your feet back then much the same as now. Hard work, determination and some luck got me here today. I am very much of the belief that if I can do it anyone can. But for absolutely certain no-one is going to hand it to you, you are going to have to make a considerable effort to change your circumstances.
The problem these days is few people accept responsibility for their own lives, everyone wants to be a victim or blame someone else for their woes.
You always have a choice, you may not like them but you always have one.

Now I am sure that someone will come along and point out the error of my ways because of some social economic model create 500 years ago and the need to support the country. But the Older I get the less and less inclined to support any government or council because of the people who seem to think that we are there to serve them and not the other way round.

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Re: Latest Tax Grab by SNP/Greens (Council tax)

Post by campbell » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:42 pm

No rant seen there, Mike. A very rational position.

I really align with your sentiment about aspiring to be self-made and not expecting handouts or “entitlement”.

Albeit I kinda accept the progressive taxation ethos we have in UK. Maybe because I don’t earn enough to trigger it that much
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Re: Latest Tax Grab by SNP/Greens (Council tax)

Post by Stevoraith » Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:37 pm

I hear what you are saying Mike, and I certainly share the sentiment, however....

Basic living costs are fixed, it doesn’t matter if you’re on the dole or a lottery winner, a loaf of bread and pint of milk costs the same.

The point is that once you reach a certain level of earning, every single penny you earn above that can be spent on ‘luxuries’.
That luxury might be a sports car or it might be Heinz beans instead of Tesco value, but it’s stuff you want rather than can’t do without.

It’s absolutely correct that if you work hard to earn more you should be able to spend your money on what you want.
But to me it does seem fair that higher earners should contribute a bit more from the portion of their earnings which are above the ‘fixed living costs’ to save those who earn less from having to do without some of the really basic stuff.
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Re: Latest Tax Grab by SNP/Greens (Council tax)

Post by Ferg » Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:53 pm

Yep. Lots of sense from Mike. 👍

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Re: Latest Tax Grab by SNP/Greens (Council tax)

Post by Mikie711 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:16 am

Stevoraith wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:37 pm
But to me it does seem fair that higher earners should contribute a bit more from the portion of their earnings which are above the ‘fixed living costs’ to save those who earn less from having to do without some of the really basic stuff.
The point is that will happen with a fixed percentage being paid by all, doesn't have to be a stepped system.
If you had a more progressive tax system less people would be inclined to avoid paying tax or move abroad. I personally know at least a dozen guys that worked the 90 day rule to avoid paying tax because the amount was seen as unfair or too costly and at least another dozen that left the country completely for the same reason. That equates to roughly 1.5 million in lost tax revenue. Now in the greater scheme of things that isn't a drop in the ocean when it comes to a countries finances however, as a conservative estimate, multiply that number by 100 for 2400 people that have left because they didn't't want to pay high taxes or even 1000 which is probably closer and your talking about a significant lump of cash that has walked out the door because of our tax regime. That also ignores the money that now isn't being spent in this country, isn't in circulation in Scotland.
Granted some would have left anyway but many wouldn't have if the cost as a tax payer was at least perceived as being fairer.
Further, I wouldn't mind paying higher taxes if there was some benefit to me, however if I end up unemployed or long term ill there will be no support from the state, I'll end up in the same NHS due as someone who hasn't contributed a penny to the system and will have to use up all my capital before receiving any form of support from the government despite having paid 30 years of NI and 35 years of taxes.
All the above is just one example of why I think the system is screwed there are many others, such as the civil service is to big, draws to much money and is unsustainable.

Someone once said that the problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other peoples money.
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Re: Latest Tax Grab by SNP/Greens (Council tax)

Post by Stevoraith » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:27 am

Playing Devils advocate here, would you keep the 20% rate for all and just do away with the higher rate, or increase the basic rate for everyone?

Believe me, there’s nobody more annoyed about the way the SNP have set the higher rate tax band in Scotland. If I lived in England I’d save enough per year for a family holiday, something which we’re more than likely going to have to do without this year.
And it riles me that less than half of every pound I earn in overtime actually makes its way to my pocket but I do think, in principle, it’s the fairest way to do it.
Maybe 40% is a bit much though, and £43500 is definitely too low to be called a ‘high earner’.
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Re: Latest Tax Grab by SNP/Greens (Council tax)

Post by Mikie711 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:55 pm

Increase the basic rate to 25-27% simpler to work out, everyone pays a fair share proportionally.
If you earn £100k you pay £25-27k tax
If you earn £20k you pay £5-5.4k tax.

Unfortunately those that earn less than the 41% tax point genuinely believe that those that earn more should pay at a higher rate to take up the slack simply because that's the way it has been for years and years. Further, they make up the largest section of the voting public so no politician is ever going to champion a radical reform of the tax system.
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Re: Latest Tax Grab by SNP/Greens (Council tax)

Post by Rosssco » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:45 pm

It's an interesting point, especially regarding the 41% threshold. In my case, I was recently doing the sums on taking a lower paid job elsewhere (in Scotland), and actually once I started plugging in the numbers, I was surprised that I wasn't as much out of pocket every month when you had salaries closer to the magic threshold, as the relationship is obviously non-linear.

So I can see how it may have the effect of discouraging people pushing for higher salaries (a process which actually tends to elevate ALL pay to some extent. Whether you think this sort of wage inflation is a good thing, is another matter) once there's less incentive to do so.
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Re: Latest Tax Grab by SNP/Greens (Council tax)

Post by pete » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:57 pm

There IS a benefit in paying tax, it contributes to the society, it's why Denmark is lovely and why the countries where no-one pays tax are awful!

Council tax is nuts, but I'd wonder how a 1% tax works, is it collected centrally and then dished back out? There's certain suburbs are going to be utterly minted whereas some counties are going to be broke. The whole of East Ayrshire is probably worth only slightly more than a flat in Edinburgh...

Still better than local income tax...
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Re: Latest Tax Grab by SNP/Greens (Council tax)

Post by Rosssco » Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:02 pm

Looks like the SNP (former members of) have been grabbing more than tax..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-46984747
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Re: Latest Tax Grab by SNP/Greens (Council tax)

Post by rossybee » Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:14 pm

Rosssco wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:02 pm
Looks like the SNP (former members of) have been grabbing more than tax..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-46984747
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