Anyone out there?

Anything goes in here.....
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Sanjøy
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Re: Anyone out there?

Post by Sanjøy » Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:22 pm

I always thought you would have had a Gran Turismo before me.
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douglasgdmw
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Re: Anyone out there?

Post by douglasgdmw » Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:38 pm

H8OAG wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:07 pm
Image
Blimey - BMW grills are probably so big now you could fit an E30 318is alloy and still have space spare.

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H8OAG
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Re: Anyone out there?

Post by H8OAG » Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:35 pm

douglasgdmw wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:38 pm
H8OAG wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:07 pm
Image
Blimey - BMW grills are probably so big now you could fit an E30 318is alloy and still have space spare.

George

The grill is electric and opens with the auxiliary fan

I have sucked in small birds/rodents/ children after a spirited blast

We had an X7 on loan.....It was so big that I am glad I have my HGV licence

:cheers
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Clarkie
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Re: Anyone out there?

Post by Clarkie » Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:02 pm

Hi Ian,

Did you go for diesel or hybrid?

Cheers

Clark

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H8OAG
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Re: Anyone out there?

Post by H8OAG » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:57 am

Clarkie wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:02 pm
Hi Ian,

Did you go for diesel or hybrid?

Cheers

Clark

Morning Clarke

Diesel

The hybrid is pointless unless you are a slave to the company car scheme and worried about tax implications

Lithium-Ion is witchcraft ......and my preferred alternative to fossil fuels is Hydrogen when we are forced to change

:cheers
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graeme
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Re: Anyone out there?

Post by graeme » Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:03 am

You know hydrogen cell vehicles are just Li-Ion EVs with a needlessly complicated charging system on board?
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H8OAG
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Re: Anyone out there?

Post by H8OAG » Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:27 am

graeme wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:03 am
You know hydrogen cell vehicles are just Li-Ion EVs with a needlessly complicated charging system on board?
If you subscribe to the Elon Musk school of thought

Academia elsewhere suggest that hydrogen will (albeit in the longer term):cheaper and more efficient
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graeme
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Re: Anyone out there?

Post by graeme » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:23 am

Interesting. It's not at all how I see things going. Battery tech has all the investment, so even ignoring the merits of any other solution, BEV could well be the VHS while other solutions are doomed to be the Betamax. The tax incentives to own a hybrid are decreasing in favour of pure battery EV. So more investment will go into pure BEV as more business users choose pure BEV. In short, I can't think of any reason hydrogen is suddenly going to get masses of investment cash. I know Toyota have a few H-cell models, but really, who's going to buy them over a Leaf in any volume?

Next problem, an on-board hydrogen cell generates electricity, not torque. It can't do it on demand at the exact rate that the motors consume it. So, you need a battery as a buffer, and an electric motor to run off it. To fit a hydrogen cell to a car as a primary power plant or range extender, you need to start with a 100% complete BEV (batteries, motor, gearbox, chargers, power management unit, heat management and all the other expensive bits). Why bother with the addition of all the tanks and hydrogen cell stuff? Just put a bigger battery in. It'll always be cheaper, and probably the divide will grow as BEV gets cheaper fast than H-cells get cheaper (due to investment and volume produced). That's nothing to do with technical merit, just which horse got out the starting gate first.

Next, battery tech improvements come in big step changes. We're currently milking the last dribbles of improvement out of Li-Ion's ageing prostate, but there will be a leap forward with solid state cells, instantly giving us 20 min charge time potential, and 1000 mile ranges. As soon as that happens, range anxiety goes away and there's a big BEV sales explosion and nobody even considers a hybrid (ICE or H-Cell) any more, and other ideas won't get a look in because there won't be a problem to solve. Then it'll just be how fast we can roll out superchargers and the focus will move to where it should be, which is infrastructure at local level, innovative mass energy storage solutions and beefing up or bypassing the grid. I believe we're a lot closer to commercially viable solid-state batteries than we are to having a hydrogen distribution network.

The pace of rollout for EV charging points has been glacial, but is accelerating. Trying to get hydrogen pumps rolled out will never happen, as it's already too far behind EV charging. Again, it's just a case of first out the gate and simplicity as an advantage, rather than any discussion of technical merit or energy density or range.

I think hydrogen cells had a place as an alternative to the ICE in a hybrid solution, but I don't see them ever replacing pure BEVs, and as BEVs improve, we won't have hybrids at all, so the hydrogen hybrids won't have a market anyway.

Of course, my crystal ball isn't exactly the highest colour, clarity or cut.
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mrbennybennett
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Re: Anyone out there?

Post by mrbennybennett » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:59 am

H8OAG wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:46 pm
ed wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:33 pm
Glad to see still game is alive and well! :wave :thumbsup
Evening Ed

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H8OAG
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Re: Anyone out there?

Post by H8OAG » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:09 pm

graeme wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:23 am
Interesting. It's not at all how I see things going. Battery tech has all the investment, so even ignoring the merits of any other solution, BEV could well be the VHS while other solutions are doomed to be the Betamax. The tax incentives to own a hybrid are decreasing in favour of pure battery EV. So more investment will go into pure BEV as more business users choose pure BEV. In short, I can't think of any reason hydrogen is suddenly going to get masses of investment cash. I know Toyota have a few H-cell models, but really, who's going to buy them over a Leaf in any volume?

Next problem, an on-board hydrogen cell generates electricity, not torque. It can't do it on demand at the exact rate that the motors consume it. So, you need a battery as a buffer, and an electric motor to run off it. To fit a hydrogen cell to a car as a primary power plant or range extender, you need to start with a 100% complete BEV (batteries, motor, gearbox, chargers, power management unit, heat management and all the other expensive bits). Why bother with the addition of all the tanks and hydrogen cell stuff? Just put a bigger battery in. It'll always be cheaper, and probably the divide will grow as BEV gets cheaper fast than H-cells get cheaper (due to investment and volume produced). That's nothing to do with technical merit, just which horse got out the starting gate first.

Next, battery tech improvements come in big step changes. We're currently milking the last dribbles of improvement out of Li-Ion's ageing prostate, but there will be a leap forward with solid state cells, instantly giving us 20 min charge time potential, and 1000 mile ranges. As soon as that happens, range anxiety goes away and there's a big BEV sales explosion and nobody even considers a hybrid (ICE or H-Cell) any more, and other ideas won't get a look in because there won't be a problem to solve. Then it'll just be how fast we can roll out superchargers and the focus will move to where it should be, which is infrastructure at local level, innovative mass energy storage solutions and beefing up or bypassing the grid. I believe we're a lot closer to commercially viable solid-state batteries than we are to having a hydrogen distribution network.

The pace of rollout for EV charging points has been glacial, but is accelerating. Trying to get hydrogen pumps rolled out will never happen, as it's already too far behind EV charging. Again, it's just a case of first out the gate and simplicity as an advantage, rather than any discussion of technical merit or energy density or range.

I think hydrogen cells had a place as an alternative to the ICE in a hybrid solution, but I don't see them ever replacing pure BEVs, and as BEVs improve, we won't have hybrids at all, so the hydrogen hybrids won't have a market anyway.

Of course, my crystal ball isn't exactly the highest colour, clarity or cut.

Each to their own

Fully understand your argument that you still require batteries ....but lithium ion as a storage medium is flawed..... and I would still view that hydrogen linked to a capacitor or whatever comes next after lithium ion would be my choice.
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H8OAG
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Re: Anyone out there?

Post by H8OAG » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:10 pm

mrbennybennett wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:59 am
H8OAG wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:46 pm
ed wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:33 pm
Glad to see still game is alive and well! :wave :thumbsup
Evening Ed

Do you still see Willie Frame from time to time?
Ian - We do a bit of work will Willie in Edinburgh - some character :D .............
indeed.......but not for discussion on this forum

:D
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ed
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Re: Anyone out there?

Post by ed » Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:36 pm

:lol: Haven’t seen him in years. Please send him my best if you see him. :cheers
It's not Terrys, its mine! 8)
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fd
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Re: Anyone out there?

Post by fd » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:43 pm

Hydrogen distribution network is some tanks at 'petrol' stations, the stations already exist, and some trucks to deliver it, which already exist . . . it's a somewhat proven model where all the expensive and difficult to scale parts basically already exist. Compare this to the BEV charging infrastucture gap . . .

Any modern power plant will be a hybrid of some kind, precisely what the energy store is will change over time, supercapacitors are a far better idea than batteries of any type for example.

The cost of dragging a 600Kg battery around to get decent range is daft, especially if the energy producing part of the system can be made smaller and lighter, which it inevitably will be, whether that be a fuel cell or a hydrogen turbine, or, or . . .

The automotive industry is running scared from fleet co2 legislation which could put them out of business, so anything that solves that problem (regardless that it is not scalable or sustainable) will do for them . . . They are not really good at strategy, their cycle length is too short and its all about volume, they would be doing nothing unless legislated to do so . . .

I'm considering moving to a long range tesla 3 shortly but I wouldn't want to own it, it will do everything I need for daily driving. For all the negatives which apply to tesla (and there are a few), they have the most viable charging infrastructure, which is the weak link at the moment. These kinds of cars are disposable white goods to me, I care not a jot about them any more, I just want it to work and be someone elses problem when it doesn't.

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Mikie711
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Re: Anyone out there?

Post by Mikie711 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:18 pm

Evening Mr Boag, long time no see. Glad to read your in fine spirits.
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Clarkie
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Anyone out there?

Post by Clarkie » Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:58 pm

H8OAG wrote:
The new X5 is certainly an acquired taste .........
I now parade about Comrie in a blacked out X5 in a not too subtle mineral white.
The mobile hairdressers appear to be extremely jealous

:cheers
What you need for the X5 is some storage more in keeping with your preferred pursuitsImageImage





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