Lotus' last combustion-engined sports car incoming

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Re: Lotus' last combustion-engined sports car incoming

Post by Mikie711 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:22 pm

Lotus broke the mould with the S1, all extruded aluminium bonded chassis was ground breaking but they haven't moved the game on and everything since has been an adaptation of that technology developed 24 years ago.
The obvious way forward is to move to a composite chassis but this would likely be way more expensive but potentially give a lighter, stronger more adaptable chassis architecture going forward.
A lot will depend where in the corporate tree Geely see Lotus, are they developing a halo brand and using a filtered down version of the technology for the rest of their products. Similar to VAG group who have Bugatti, Lamborghini, Bently and their racing divisions to develop new technology that eventually filters down to the remainder fo the group.
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Re: Lotus' last combustion-engined sports car incoming

Post by campbell » Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:55 pm

robin wrote: I cannot see a BEV Elise unless they make a deal with tesla for supercharging and even then who wants to do 50laps of Donnie followed by 30 mins at the supercharger?

.
I’d find that pretty ideal actually.

Time for a nice lunch.

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Re: Lotus' last combustion-engined sports car incoming

Post by mckeann » Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:37 pm

robin wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:21 am


Our BEV does 300 miles on a full charge notionally, but at UK mway speeds that's more like 250 and then you usually only supercharge back up to 75% so actually you do about 200 miles between stops to optimise the total trip time. (Batteries charge fast up to about two thirds, then the charge rate tapers off, so you are better off using only the bottom 5..75% of the battery).

At 200 mile per stop, that's ok. Need a piss by then anyway 🤣 but at 100 miles per stop it would be a pain.
you've changed. i remember trying to eek 300 miles out of the 135R'sto optimise our strategies :lol:

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Re: Lotus' last combustion-engined sports car incoming

Post by robin » Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:45 pm

:-) Yes, the crude old 135R was always more efficient than the fancy toyota things for some reason. Could never get 300 miles to a tank on any of the Toyota cars I've had since I think. I don't suppose the Cup250 will be any better, but we'll find out in September (ring trip - whoot!).
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Re: Lotus' last combustion-engined sports car incoming

Post by tonyg » Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:15 pm

campbell wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:55 pm
robin wrote: I cannot see a BEV Elise unless they make a deal with tesla for supercharging and even then who wants to do 50laps of Donnie followed by 30 mins at the supercharger?

.
I’d find that pretty ideal actually.

Time for a nice lunch.

Then back out for the afternoon waft Image
Only if there are 40+ chargers at the circuit, otherwise you would find yourself in the queue.
Then work out the current required to charge them all at once.
That's the real requirement for electric vehicles to become practical.
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Re: Lotus' last combustion-engined sports car incoming

Post by robin » Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:13 pm

tonyg wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:15 pm
Only if there are 40+ chargers at the circuit, otherwise you would find yourself in the queue.
I agree this part is also challenging.
Then work out the current required to charge them all at once.
That's the real requirement for electric vehicles to become practical.
I think that part is a bit overblown, myself, unless my sums are wrong ...

We can do all the sums, but approximately it takes 100TWh/year to make all UK cars (not HGVs, PSVs, etc.) into BEVs. That's 270GWh/day. If we only take that power out in the 12 quiet hours of the day it amounts to 22.5GW of generating and distribution capacity (plus some storage for the super chargers to spunk it back out at high speed for the motorway warriors). We probably have that spare today (peak usage is 40GW, overnight usage is 20GW, peak generating capacity exceeds 60GW).

The real challenge is to get enough electrified parking spaces and a smart electricity regime that allows cars to coordinate charging so that (a) everyone gets what they need (b) it is done in a way that uses renewables as much as is possible. So it's the last mile owners, the service providers and the council that need to step up.

The jury is out on BE-HGV - Mr Tesla thinks it will work - I am not so sure - it means some mega infrastructure required at truck stops around the country. Scheduling it all would be a nightmare too, cos the truck is going to sit at the supercharger for 3 hours I think (assuming it can get 300KW average charging rate).

Hydrogen feels like a better match for the big power users because you can have big tanks, roll all day, charge up at the depot or fuel station once every couple of days, in probably 10-20 minutes per truck. It also fits the existing work patterns much better. Unfortunately it's less efficient, but provided the Hydrogen is generated by wind (or in the short term by methane+carbon capture) then it doesn't much matter how efficient it is.
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Re: Lotus' last combustion-engined sports car incoming

Post by tonyg » Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:53 pm

It was the local charging distribution I meant rather than national.
Agree hydrogen makes more sense.Once the storage/refill is cracked it could be supplied like petrol.
For all electrical vehicles to work there will need to be loads (hundred?)of charging points at each motorway sevice station.
(Assuming we are out of lockdown by then)
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Re: Lotus' last combustion-engined sports car incoming

Post by Mikie711 » Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:34 pm

Charging stations are well and good if the manufacturers develop a standard connection. At the moment there are several different types as I understand it and different voltage systems also. That certainly makes the required infrastructure much more difficult to implement.
Isn't it Porsche that have gone with an 800v system in the Taycan and are the only manufacturer to use this system to date. As such it will only be able to charge at Porche station of which there are not many so far.
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Re: Lotus' last combustion-engined sports car incoming

Post by robin » Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:02 am

tonyg wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:53 pm
For all electrical vehicles to work there will need to be loads (hundred?)of charging points at each motorway sevice station.
Not sure that's true. 300kW charging rate = 50% charge in 5 minutes. As there is no need to visit the kiosk and pay, I think the throughput will be similar to petrol pumps. So maybe twice as many? The car parks are huge at service stations - adding 20 or even 30 superchargers is not going to be that hard.
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Re: Lotus' last combustion-engined sports car incoming

Post by robin » Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:18 am

Mikie711 wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:34 pm
Charging stations are well and good if the manufacturers develop a standard connection. At the moment there are several different types as I understand it and different voltage systems also. That certainly makes the required infrastructure much more difficult to implement.
Isn't it Porsche that have gone with an 800v system in the Taycan and are the only manufacturer to use this system to date. As such it will only be able to charge at Porche station of which there are not many so far.
Tesla Model 3, Model Y and probably new Model S/X have no issues in this respect - it can charge at the Tesla chargers and any of the generics with a trivial adapter. That said we've never used anything other than a plug at home or the Tesla network - because they are everywhere on the motorway network - and they provide the fastest charge rates (125kW, soon to be 250kW).

I agree that standardisation is required, but it isn't stopping Tesla and the other manufacturers are also reporting increasing sales. Standardisation will follow. Odd balls like Porsche will make their cars work with other charging systems or they will install Porsche only chargers at service stations like Tesla did. Kind of doesn't matter, unless you plan on buying a Porsche, of course :-)
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Re: Lotus' last combustion-engined sports car incoming

Post by Mikie711 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:22 am

I guess I am still very sceptical about the whole batteries are the answer thing. I just see it as another big business opportunity to make money. I guess history will judge if it was the right direction or not.
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Re: Lotus' last combustion-engined sports car incoming

Post by tonyg » Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:45 pm

robin wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:02 am
tonyg wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:53 pm
For all electrical vehicles to work there will need to be loads (hundred?)of charging points at each motorway sevice station.
Not sure that's true. 300kW charging rate = 50% charge in 5 minutes. As there is no need to visit the kiosk and pay, I think the throughput will be similar to petrol pumps. So maybe twice as many? The car parks are huge at service stations - adding 20 or even 30 superchargers is not going to be that hard.

Yes, but (afaik) most cars can't take charging at anything like that rate (yet).
Also is the electrical supply to these stations capable of supplying the 10 mW that this would require?
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Re: Lotus' last combustion-engined sports car incoming

Post by campbell » Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:14 pm

This caught my eye in The Economist today...

After many false starts hydrogen power might now bear fruit
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Re: Lotus' last combustion-engined sports car incoming

Post by robin » Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:55 pm

Mikie711 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:22 am
I guess I am still very sceptical about the whole batteries are the answer thing. I just see it as another big business opportunity to make money. I guess history will judge if it was the right direction or not.
That sounds more emotional than logical, but I agree time will tell! We can all laugh at the suckers that bought the betamax battery cars (myself included) :-)
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Re: Lotus' last combustion-engined sports car incoming

Post by robin » Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:03 pm

campbell wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:14 pm
This caught my eye in The Economist today...

After many false starts hydrogen power might now bear fruit
I read an interesting paper from 2009 showing the electrolysis of urine allows production of green hydrogen at about 2/3 the energy cost of water electrolysis. Plus it means you don't have ammonia vapours off your piss swamp (whatever a farm calls it). Given how much piss we produce, both human and animal, this seemed like a double win because the carbon is captured in a potassium carbonate compound. In fact a multi-stage process can be self powered - you need a battery to get going, but if you feed the output through a fuel cell, you can get more electricity out than is required for the electrolysis - so even if we just did this to get rid of piss, it would make sense.

I am now wondering whether I could power a narrowboat entirely on piss ...
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