Would this concern you if you were buying a new Lotus?

[SAJ]

From someone who has a V6 on order the concern I have is the management indicating they will replace the Exige/Elise in 2015/2016.

I understand that car can depreciate but after 3 years it means that when a new model comes out that the V6 may drop substantially: due to potential owners shopping in V6's for the new model and the V6 looking like an older model.

Obviously dependant on how radical the change is but all this news does not give me a warm comfortable feeling from an ownership perspective.

George

On the replacement front 2015/2016 yes it's not that far away, but to be honest I can't see them getting a new model sorted that quickly given the cash flow issues and everything else going on.

My excitement with my order has taken a serious hit today, and I'm in two minds as to what to do right now.

We all knew that Lotus wasn't doing particularly great but a £115 million loss and £270 million in debt with all of it used up paints a much more grim picture than I had in my head.

[douglasgdmw]

My excitement with my order has taken a serious hit today, and I'm in two minds as to what to do right now.

You are definitely not the only one, we have been in that state of flux since the Evora was sold with continual variations of good/bad news coming out.

I have never know a Ronan Keating song to be so apt since we put down our deposit.

George

[DJ]

From the press release: "The £270 million received in loans has been spent, and will be paid back when the loan matures".

Paid back with what exactly? It doesn't say when the loan matures but it doesn't look like Lotus are going to sell many cars or generate much cash in the next few years!

I am making a guess that the exceptional expenses has a lot to do with the Bahar canning but even so, the CoS/Turnover ratio isn't sustainable. Here's hoping there are some one-off costs in there for getting kitted out for production of the V6. Would like to see the balance sheet with its £270m liability + existing borrowing, no doubt.

[tut]

If I was buying one it would make no difference to me. It is the car that I would want, but I would keep it regardless of what happened to Lotus, whereas you two change your cars more often.

If Lotus did go down then there would be no more cars made, numbers would be small, so surely that would make them rarer and re-sale values would go up. If you really want the car then buy it, enjoy it, and look at keeping it for longer as there is a very good chance that it will not be superseded unlike every other model so far, and the Esprit if it happens is in a different class range.

tut

[Justin]

I think it would actually help resale. Similar to TVR. There are so few anyways, and such a niche car..

[SAJ]

If I was buying one it would make no difference to me. It is the car that I would want, but I would keep it regardless of what happened to Lotus, whereas you two change your cars more often.

If Lotus did go down then there would be no more cars made, numbers would be small, so surely that would make them rarer and re-sale values would go up. If you really want the car then buy it, enjoy it, and look at keeping it for longer as there is a very good chance that it will not be superseded unlike every other model so far, and the Esprit if it happens is in a different class range.

tut

Tut I'm inclined to agree, the only reason the Europa is moving on is because the new Exige now exists otherwise till now there has been no other car that has made me want to move away from the Europa so I am buying the car because I do really want it.

My current plan is to keep hold of it for at least the next 5 years, and even if Lotus do eventually get their act together and bring new models I have a feeling this is the last of the old school Lotus cars to come out of Hethel e.g. without power steering and retaining the legendary Lotus steering feel as well as that Lotus feel I can't really describe that you get from the car. They are going to have to move the game on and appeal to the wider market which may mean loosing some of the purity that the current cars have today if they are going to survive. Regardless of what they do I'm sure from a dynamics point of view the cars will still be amazing.

My concern is really more around what to do if they went under, what would happen to parts supply? No one wants a car you can't get parts for.

[j2 lot]

Saj, first thing to say,and I don't know if you know much of the history of Lotus, is this isn't anything new Lotus have a history of lurching from crisis to crisis and have been owned or part owned by Toyota,GM, Bugatti and several others too.
They are probably better placed now with new models and a variety of models that didn't exist in previous hard times

I think the posted losses are shocking and as a 'stand alone' figure you are right to question the future BUT we know there is a story behind how they arrived there and now that the episode in its history is over the future looks brighter, balance books excepted. If the debt created by Bahars plans wasn't there they would potentially be in a better place than they have been for a long time- owners investing, new models getting great reviews and expanding into new markets.
I would have worried about ordering a car from them a year ago, I wouldn't worry about it now. The prophets of doom on other forums are in danger of creating a fear that will become an epidemic and become self fulfilling
Stick with your order and enjoy the thrill of getting a great new car in a couple of months

[SAJ]

Saj, first thing to say,and I don't know if you know much of the history of Lotus, is this isn't anything new Lotus have a history of lurching from crisis to crisis and have been owned or part owned by Toyota,GM, Bugatti and several others too.
They are probably better placed now with new models and a variety of models that didn't exist in previous hard times

I think the posted losses are shocking and as a 'stand alone' figure you are right to question the future BUT we know there is a story behind how they arrived there and now that the episode in its history is over the future looks brighter, balance books excepted. If the debt created by Bahars plans wasn't there they would potentially be in a better place than they have been for a long time- owners investing, new models getting great reviews and expanding into new markets.
I would have worried about ordering a car from them a year ago, I wouldn't worry about it now. The prophets of doom on other forums are in danger of creating a fear that will become an epidemic and become self fulfilling
Stick with your order and enjoy the thrill of getting a great new car in a couple of months

Yeh you're right it's nothing new but the fact that £270 million has been burned and nothing much to show for it is a very sad and grim place to be. I don't think they have ever been this bad before. Assuming DRB-Hicom honor what they are currently saying in the press then hopefully the future will improve but nothing to stop them changing their mind and dumping it. DRB are of course going to say they are in full support of Lotus and it's future, if they didn't everyone would be cancelling orders left right and centre.

My order is staying, just these things do sit in the back of your mind.

So if anyone is considering cancelling or still not sure what to do, you can do me a favor and swap your earlier build slot with mine

[ryallm]

Lotus have indeed gone from one financial crisis to another throughout their history, but I think the scale of the losses make this different. More worrying is that it is really hard to see how it can ever be turned into a profitable business. They are going to have to invest heavily in new models and it is difficult to see how they will be able to get that investment back without a dramatic increase in sales. A tie up with a major manufacturer to share development costs along the lines of Caterham and Renault is surely the only way.

Needless to say I hope I am wrong because they clearly are still capable of producing fantastic cars. I want an Exige V6 badly!

Mark

[BiggestNizzy]

The costs sunk proton and the managment at proton are the ones to blame for all of this. Every man and his dog knew bahars plan was a bit mental but they all bought into it. (it must have been one hell of a presentation)
Lotus is an Engineering and brand company nowadays the cars bit is a sideline so everyone knows how good they are. Bahars good idea was making more of the brand. They should have worked out how to build up the car business so that it stopped hemoraging engineerings money. instead they spunked a spectaculary large amount and have little to show for it.

Lotus isn't dead it wouldn't be in anyones interest to kill it. Engineering still makes money. The cars part could be made profitable but it will need alot of work. THe renault caterham deal is a blow as that is what Lotus should be pitching for. Branding should be exploited more "25 cups are all well and good but your more likely to sell 3 at a £10 than 1 at £25 and I'm sure a cup has a large profit margin.

[ryallm]

Report in this week's Autocar reveals that Lotus experienced a 58% sales drop in the UK in 2012, selling a mere 137 cars compared to 329 in 2011. Even allowing for overseas sales, that must make for a truly staggering loss per car sold

[SAJ]

Would be good to know what the real number of V6 Exige orders are actually in the pipeline. Hard to tell how many of the 300-400 number are actually firm numbers.

There also seems to be a lot of people over on seloc going on about suppliers not being paid and parts being withheld to complete cars, again not really sure how much of this is actually fact.

[Gareth]

To be honest, I'd not be sitting comfortably that my hard earned (circa £60K) was going into a new Lotus.
I don't want to be too negative as those selling them need to make a living but....

Lotus have (in my ownership) made great cars but I think they've shot themselves in the foot with the Exige.
Everyone got excited about it but this delay has killed the buzz. Customers are approaching a year past their delivery date with no sign of arrival....

Maybe they will go the way of the Evora. Another great car but you can't sell them for love nor money.

Keep the Europa! Lovely car.

Actually, how about a Porsche Boxster Spyder (if a second car)?
Used for mid 30s with 2 year OPC warranty.

[Dominic]

To be honest, I'd not be sitting comfortably that my hard earned (circa £60K) was going into a new Lotus.
I don't want to be too negative as those selling them need to make a living but....

Lotus have (in my ownership) made great cars but I think they've shot themselves in the foot with the Exige.
Everyone got excited about it but this delay has killed the buzz. Customers are approaching a year past their delivery date with no sign of arrival....

Maybe they will go the way of the Evora. Another great car but you can't sell them for love nor money.

Keep the Europa! Lovely car.

Actually, how about a Porsche Boxster Spyder (if a second car)?
Used for mid 30s with 2 year OPC warranty.

I don't think that a lot of that is true -

Exige V6s are now appearing in the showrooms, and there are pics of customer cars coming off the production lines - no reason to doubt the delivery dates that are being advised. So I'd say there is plenty of signs of the cars arriving!

I have also seen plenty of Evoras being bought and sold, and plenty of owners on here have done so. On that basis I think to say that they can't be sold for love nor money is nonsense.

What I can say however is the ill-informed attitude that you display in your post is what is generating negative thoughts about Lotus... IMHO

[Andy G]

From someone who has a V6 on order the concern I have is the management indicating they will replace the Exige/Elise in 2015/2016.

I understand that car can depreciate but after 3 years it means that when a new model comes out that the V6 may drop substantially: due to potential owners shopping in V6's for the new model and the V6 looking like an older model.

Obviously dependant on how radical the change is but all this news does not give me a warm comfortable feeling from an ownership perspective.

George

Currently you've got demand vs supply on your side