The Referendum

[cjm]

Is it not just a wish list of what the first scottish goverment would like to do if that was an SNP government but they might not be in power and anything could happen after a yes vote?

[tut]

The White Paper was 500 pages.

The proposal for the HSTL is 50,000 pages.

tut

[Dark]

apparently getting rid of "WMD's" from the Clyde shall provide a major windfall for all Scotland..

I doubt the 5000 workers at Faslane & Coulport feel the same way....

[tut]

Did not think that "Reforendum" looked right.

Was everybody just being polite?

tut

[Shug]

Did not think that "Reforendum" looked right.

Was everybody just being polite?

tut

Maybe everyone else. I just didn't get on in time to give you abuse.

[flyingscot68]

Did not think that "Reforendum" looked right.

Was everybody just being polite?

tut

You got there in the end Tut

[woody]

Did not think that "Reforendum" looked right.

Was everybody just being polite?

tut

Maybe everyone else. I just didn't get on in time to give you abuse.

I was. Still not sure if you've checked skype

[Alistair]

Can't add too much to what has been said - other than we had to do some emergency work to install new kit to support the download of said document - which caused me no end of grief - so for that reason I'm out

On a lighter note - Scottish man, wearing England shirt, thinks we should all move to Wales!

Note - NSFW! Very NSFW! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmGjiokfQ2A

Funny though - if you don't want to vote no after this - or yes - or erm - I can't work out which - if he moved to Wales that would be good - but then there might be others - ocht - A dinnae ken!

[point n squirt]

If we vote yes can we get rid of all these twat's please , i will happily run them to Wales.

[tut]

Did not think that "Reforendum" looked right.

Was everybody just being polite?

tut

Maybe everyone else. I just didn't get on in time to give you abuse.

I was. Still not sure if you've checked skype

Have done now woody.

Thanks for the birthday wishes guys, looks like you had a good session.

tut

[Mikie711]

Tut wrote a the beginning of this thread “I am voting for what is going to be the best for my family, and do you know what? I think that I have the right.”
That applies to everyone who has a vote not just tut.
There has been much debate about this subject and the one thing that is clear from all that has been said and published is that no one really knows how this will play out in the event of a yes vote.
J2 wrote that the white paper reads like a wish list and he’s right it is a wish list and the reason that there is no nuts and bolts, is because nobody can put any substance to it.
We are talking about splitting part of a nation that has been inter-twined since the Acts of the Union in 1707 and as such is fairly unprecedented in modern times so much of what will follow will be done by negotiation.
Recently in the news they have been making a big deal about what currency Scotland will use should the referendum return a yes vote. All the comments have been about how we might not get to keep the pound. This is utterly ridiculous and demonstrates the medias lack of understanding and bias in the reporting of what is going on. The simple answer is that if we choose then the pound it will be, why? Because we already have our own pound and our own coins, always have had. The question should be what it would be worth but that is a whole other topic.
The point is there is so much spin surrounding this now it is almost impossible to figure out who’s right and who’s wrong. Every day there is argument and counter argument on one topic or another. Part of the problem is that the Politian’s aren’t that well informed on the subject that and feelings run pretty high on this whole scenario.
I will make it clear from the outset that I am very firmly in the yes camp but do not expect to win come next September.
I firmly believe that Scotland has the capability, resources and people to make this one of if not the best small country on the planet, but this will never happen while we are governed from London. We just don’t have a large enough demographic to influence policy to our advantage. Our values, culture and requirements are different than that of middle England and the SE and policy will always be made to favour the largest voting population.
Now I am not saying that the SNP have all the answers, I don’t for instance agree with their no nuclear policy although I do agree that trident should get the heave ho but I do believe they have had a greater impact on Scottish political arena and certainly given more focus to Scotland than we had before.
Everyone keeps asking where will the money come from, the same place it does now, same as it does for every country around the world. Taxation and investment. The advantage would come in being able to attract investment due to our ability to make policy that reflects our needs and desires. Although we do have a habit of shooting ourselves in the foot with things like this. The recent Trump golf course carry on is not a shinning example of how to attract new investment into an area.
When all is said and done come September and the votes are counted it will all be a mute point anyway. Likely we will loose a devolved parliament on the back of the no vote and we can all go back to or daily lives mourning a lost opportunity or patting ourselves on the back for a bullet dodged.
One point of note that I do find interesting, if ,as many would suggest, Scotland is such a burden on the UK economy why are the Westminster Government so opposed to the idea?

[robin]

I am pretty sure the issue with what currency to use has nothing to do with notes and coins

[tut]

Could very much be an age related vote. I am not prepared to take the chance but at the other end of the scale there could be a higher % yes vote.

Must ask the kids what they intend to do, but I expect lethargy will apply to a large proportion.

tut

[Shug]

What infuriates for me is how Eck has managed to sneak through the 16 year old votes... They aren't old enough to be trusted with alcohol or a driving license, but can be trusted to have a balanced view on the future of our nation? I know 16 year old me would probably have voted 'yes' in a torrent of pride and misplaced bravado, but older me sees the big picture. It's the most transparent example of his trying to load the dice in the most cynical fashion - for that alone, I hate the man.

At a time when the green shoots of recovery are showing, why on earth would we want to cut free from the stabilising force of the UK Exchequer? Given the level of talent visible in Scottish politics, I'd be terrified to live in a country where all our livelihoods depended on them getting it right. Mike - I hear what you're saying about the theoretical possibilities for Scotland alone, but looking at the stuffed turnips in Holyrood on the news every night, can you put your hand on your heart and tell me you think they are remotely capable of running a country. I'm sorry, the people in Westminster aren't faultless, but it's a level above the dross that's filtered into Holyrood...

Finally (and the telling point, personally) - nobody has yet explained to me why I don't want to be British? I've grown up exceptionally proud of my Scottish heritage, gone through the period in my youth where I railed against English rule, then realised that being British as well as Scottish is a source of pride for me as well. Scotland has been a cornerstone of Britain for hundreds of years - in the last hundred, our part has been acknowledged more and more. I don't feel a desire to turn my back on that.

My /2c, YMMV, etc. etc...

[pete]

<Breaks free from restraints, kicks orderly to ground and runs to keyboard>

Tut wrote a the beginning of this thread “I am voting for what is going to be the best for my family, and do you know what? I think that I have the right.”
That applies to everyone who has a vote not just tut.

It does, but it is largely irrelevant, everyone votes out of self interest, it's just their understanding of what is in their best interest that differs. (Yet one more reason why I should be in charge, making all the decisions for people.)

There has been much debate about this subject and the one thing that is clear from all that has been said and published is that no one really knows how this will play out in the event of a yes vote.

Yes. Unlike the UK as a whole, whose future is mapped out in detail until June 2056. That's why when the economy crashed in 2008 everyone, and I mean everyone, saw it coming.
Where is the "wishlist for the future of the UK" and how Scotland plays a part in it? Oh, yeah there is. It's the call by the Tories to scrap the Barnett formula, thus costing Scotland c 4 Billion UKP every year.
Let's paraphrase it a bit -

A Scottish government with a mandate from the Scottish people has drawn up a wishlist of where it would like to see the country in x years time.
To which the internet replies - That's rubbish they shouldn't have done that. Barstewards.

The UK government, with no clear mandate from either the Scottish people (who barely voted for them at all) or from the UK as a whole (who couldn't decide who to vote for) has not drawn up any clear plans for the future, beyond more cuts for the poor and tax cuts for the rich in response to gross economic mismanagement.
What plans they have revealed for Scotland after a vote include massive cuts to Scotland's budget by changing the Barnett formula.
To which the internet responds - Aye it's no more than we deserve. That's more like it.

We are talking about splitting part of a nation that has been inter-twined since the Acts of the Union in 1707 and as such is fairly unprecedented in modern times so much of what will follow will be done by negotiation.

Yugoslavia. Or Europe.

Recently in the news they have been making a big deal about what currency Scotland will use should the referendum return a yes vote. All the comments have been about how we might not get to keep the pound. This is utterly ridiculous and demonstrates the medias lack of understanding and bias in the reporting of what is going on. The simple answer is that if we choose then the pound it will be, why? Because we already have our own pound and our own coins, always have had. The question should be what it would be worth but that is a whole other topic.

Oh I couldn't agree with you more. I was listening to Radio Scotland last night and the BBC guy was tripping over himself to stop Stuart Cosgrove making pro-indie statements. Take a note how many news stories about independence END on the reporter talking about the anti side. Always end on a rebuttal, as the last argument is the one folk remember.
It's not the Bank of England, it is the Bank of the UK. What astonishes me is that the BBC constantly lets the Tories/libDems say nonsense like "the Scots wouldn't get their own seat on the BoE".

It is so blatantly them saying

"Dear Scotland, we are your lords and masters, we will decide what you get if, IF I SAID, we let you leave."
It was a union, not an invasion.

Part of the problem is that the Politian’s aren’t that well informed on the subject that and feelings run pretty high on this whole scenario.

The more I read the more depressed I become about how little politicians know.

I will make it clear from the outset that I am very firmly in the yes camp but do not expect to win come next September..

I wasn't but the more I read and debate it the more I become so. What depresses me is when I talk to colleagues/friends the quality of debate from the unionists is poor, yet they remain unbudgable.

I firmly believe that Scotland has the capability, resources and people to make this one of if not the best small country on the planet, but this will never happen while we are governed from London.

Yep.

Everyone keeps asking where will the money come from, the same place it does now, same as it does for every country around the world. Taxation and investment.

Good answer. There are a lot of unionists that believe it comes from Westminster, or perhaps the Red Cross.

Sorry for butchering your post.


pete