Views on Independence.

[jason]

The given arguments seem all so temporary/momentary as mechanical justifications for something deeper. I've said this before, but nobody sits down with their spouse and declares they're leaving whilst sliding a fiscal study across the kitchen table. That would be considered by most as a detraction to avoid discussing other thornier issues? To me at least...

Take the hissy "we didn't elect Westminster" argument so often voiced. It's called democracy; accept things cannot always be in your favour and respect it. The majority of Scottish MPs are Labour, and Labour were in government only a handful of years ago (as it happens, with a high ratio of Scottish cabinet ministers). A party cannot always be in power in a democracy. I grew up in NE England - I'm sure I've never heard a NE England Independence debate every time there's a non-Labour government.

Finances - if the decision is just about being better off (which is quite different to "can we afford to live solo?") then in the grand scheme of things just how shallow a reason is that to leave a union. What if independence happens, and then years later it becomes clear England/Wales/NI are doing better… does Alex ask to be let back in if it would make Scotland better off?? I'm very sure the answer would be "no", so why is there such a focus on money?

Scotland wants to break away

Erm…. damn. I guess I'm not alone in having missed my chance to vote in the referendum….

[Jam_s160]

It's just a change of management.

...the management that ran the Scottish Parliament and Trams projects, they were both on time & under budge..... mmhhh

[OlberJ]

Voting Yes isn't voting for Salmond.

Voting Yes is getting the option to choose who runs the country in 2016 rather than being given whoever London votes for.

You're losing money being part of the UK. We'd be better off if we were independent.

Even Cameron admits it, now he's going down the heart strings route, funnily enough doing exactly what they claimed Snp would when they thought we were too wee, too stupid, too poor. Remember being told the only way Independence will get any backing is if they play Braveheart the night before the election?

The No campaign haven't come up with one single, promising reason for Scotland not to be independent. They've back tracked on quite a few points and are doing the Yes camp's job for them admirably.

They can't afford to lose us. They're subsidy junkies. The Crone report was hidden for a reason, that reason is just as great now.

If we go, rUK are in hot water. Have they offered us a pay rise to keep us on? No they're offering more cuts and we should be thankful for it.

It's time we took responsibility, made our own way. Absolutely no reason we can't and many, many reasons why we will.

[H8OAG]

Anyone want to consider how apathetic the rest of the UK will be towards any Scottish Issues if the No vote prevails ?

[Mikie711]

It's just a change of management.

...the management that ran the Scottish Parliament and Trams projects, they were both on time & under budge..... mmhhh

Everyone keeps throwing this out there but, from what I have read, the tram project was opposed by SNP but were out voted in Prliament. The whole prject is run by a Labour lead Edinburgh council.
As for the Parliament building Dewar was the chairman of the design committee, and also the person that decided that a purpose built Parliament was needed, that chose the design. Interestingly the design by Enric Miralles was one of the public favorites apparently. Bovis managed the build and they are a shaddy bunch to say the least. But again the project was all under Labour control.

All that said I distrust any politician and have little time for any of them, however it is the way our system works and a smaller more dynamic form of government has been proved time and again to much better especially for a small sized country. Further do you not think that we deserve to manage our own affairs we are after all a separate country, a Nation in it's own right with a proud history and distinct culture all it's own. I would settle for devolved powers, all of them not just some and a clear balance sheet showing who pays what, not the "flexible" accounting that seems to be taking place. Unfortunately that is not an option and perhaps would be unworkable, I really don't know.

Would you let your next door neighbour manage your household finances. Different scale admittedly but the principal is the same.

Oh and the Scotland was to break away is the reason behind the referendum it wasn't meant to suggest that everybody wants that IYSWIM.

[Lazydonkey]

Oops

[Lazydonkey]

Voting Yes isn't voting for Salmond.

Voting Yes is getting the option to choose who runs the country in 2016 rather than being given whoever London votes for.

That assumes that the London parliament isn't who you voted for and the Scottish one is. Not a given.

Most of the No campaign seems to be anti Tory but they don't seem to stand a chance of getting back in anyway.... Does that mean the yes voters would have been happy staying? As jase says it's democracy.

I didn't vote SNP but I live in lovely Nicola's area and there was hehaw chance of anyone else getting in. I don't have any more Trust and confidence in the snp or Scottish parliament than I do with what UK parliament.

For me the utopia of being run by a truly Scottish elected government just gives the shame shameful sh*t.... I've seen no evidence of better politicians and better decisions coming out of Edinburgh despite our system making that more likely. Primary school class sizes have gone up under this government despite it being an snp manifesto pledge to reduce them. Why should we believe anything they say?

For me leaving the union would have to give us a real change for the better.... So far no one has demonstrated that is the case. The finances don't stack up for me until I've seen the cost of the divorce.

Finally by not having a plan B for currency we've pretty much knackered any hope of having a truly indecent financial policy.... As was demonstrated the other week we aren't going to get stirling without a load of compromises.

I've just restructured my team in work. Changed the way the Scotland and English teams work together. I wasn't allowed to do this would a fully costed business plan that shows the cost of change and the benefits.

Why shouldn't we expect that here?

[j2 lot]

It's just a change of management.

...the management that ran the Scottish Parliament and Trams projects, they were both on time & under budge..... mmhhh

Everyone keeps throwing this out there but, from what I have read, the tram project was opposed by SNP but were out voted in Prliament.

It has already been mentioned that we are not voting for an SNP government we are voting for the right to have a Scottish government and until any of them prove that they can manage our affairs efficiently why would I support the idea.
To use your analogy Mike why let your neighbour run your finances when he can't manage his own and pays more than twice as much for everything than he expected.

[tut]

At present there are no restrictions for business amongst the four Countries, and I believe the European Union as well.

Is it worth risking this with the possibility of a different currency, exchange controls, and god forbid any sort of border crossings? Regardless of what you think of the present UK Government, does not matter whether it is C, L, C/LD or L/LD, how would you tell the difference, they have hundreds of years of running the Country whereas Scotland only has partial experience.

I know the position I am in at present, which is pretty good and stable, so I do not think I would risk that. I will leave my vote until the day, when hopefully I will have more information to work from, and everything will be laid down by then in black and white.

tut

ps:- my view has to be based on different criteria than the rest of you due to being retired, having a guaranteed income that I know I can not lose and is going to increase every year, and paying no Income Tax.

[tut]

Scottish Referendum match on shortly.

If Scotland win then I will change my vote to "yes".

tut

[pete]

It has already been mentioned that we are not voting for an SNP government we are voting for the right to have a Scottish government and until any of them prove that they can manage our affairs efficiently why would I support the idea.

The current setup has resulted in numerous crashes. Is the nub of your argument "better the devil you know?"
Or have the Westminster lot done stuff to justify your faith that I missed?

To use your analogy Mike why let your neighbour run your finances when he can't manage his own and pays more than twice as much for everything than he expected.

Errm yes. That would seem to Mike's point in a nutshell. Better to mess up you own finances, than let someone else mess them up for you.

Probably. But what do I know

[tut]

Looks as if I am not going to be committed to a "yes" vote.......

tut

[tut]

England's kicker booed as he takes a penalty.

Both pathetic and shameful. Expected in football but not in rugby.

tut

[j2 lot]

It has already been mentioned that we are not voting for an SNP government we are voting for the right to have a Scottish government and until any of them prove that they can manage our affairs efficiently why would I support the idea.

The current setup has resulted in numerous crashes. Is the nub of your argument "better the devil you know?"
Or have the Westminster lot done stuff to justify your faith that I missed?

There probably is an element of better the devil you know & actually I do have more faith in the Westminster lot - no matter what flavour and mostly because the Scottish lot have not provided me with any evidence that they are up to the job. They keep telling us how it will be but they haven't yet got any agreement on any of it so they haven't left themselves in a very good position to negotiate if they do win the vote

[pete]

It has already been mentioned that we are not voting for an SNP government we are voting for the right to have a Scottish government and until any of them prove that they can manage our affairs efficiently why would I support the idea.

The current setup has resulted in numerous crashes. Is the nub of your argument "better the devil you know?"
Or have the Westminster lot done stuff to justify your faith that I missed?

There probably is an element of better the devil you know & actually I do have more faith in the Westminster lot - no matter what flavour and mostly because the Scottish lot have not provided me with any evidence that they are up to the job. They keep telling us how it will be but they haven't yet got any agreement on any of it so they haven't left themselves in a very good position to negotiate if they do win the vote

What annoys me about the No lot is the "Ah the Yes lot are only guessing" argument they constantly make. The No side have no certainties either.

i would be way more likely to vote no if there was some sign of the No lot saying "Look - we get it, you Scotch are unhappy - you've voted in a party with a proper majority, more the rUK managed, who want independence. There are clearly issues here regardless of the outcome of the vote. So post referendum, if you vote no we'll <insert some promises for the future here>". Or even - this is our vision of the future...

But all I hear is <adopts Frankie Howerd voice> "oooh don't trust them - the Yes lot - they are just making promises they can't keep. Oooo."

But that's not true the Yes lot are trying to imagine a better future. Now you and even I might not agree with their visions but at least they are trying. What have the NO side offered other than threats, or thanks to Cameron this week a blatant appeal to patriotism!

Probably. but like I said I'm largely just making this stuff up whilst my daughter watches Total Wipeout on iPlayer.