Scottish Independance - debate

[KingK_series]

Much longer post deleted.

My politics are somewhat dis-similar to renmure but I totally agree with his post.

The view of the Scotland debate in England is not as uniform as you make out King.

- to be absolutely honest I have no idea what the electorate of Scotland think or more importantly are debating which is why i am asking


all we get down south is news interviews with Salmond and co and his take....... and a lot of interviews with ordinary Scottish people saying they feel bullied by Westminster saying Scotland cannot keep the pound etc etc

Personally I feel exasperated that the very serious technical explanation that Carney gave for Scotland keeping the pound being an absolutely disastrous thing for all the people of this Island not being presented as a technical argument rather than a childish tit for tat political but otherwise inconsequential arrangement -

people just don't seem to hook into what that discussion is really all about

- and people down here see that as Salmond's doing as a supreme political operator, - personally I think that's only half the argument - I think the no campaign has failed miserably to articulate - "why" letting Scotland keep the pound -= aka Euro would be a disaster

ditto all the other issues ...


but I am interested in what you all think and how you are discussing this - ??????

[pete]

but I'll tell you now there are a lot of people down south who are really upset that we don't have a vote concurrent with Scotland's.

What there are a lot of people in England who want to vote on England leaving the UK?

[renmure]

Politics on Forums is boring. You speak for you, not the rest of the UK.

Remember... 99% of the electorate are likely to be ignorant about 99% of the stuff that doesn't directly concern them. It is actually pretty scary to see how effective both campaigns are at putting out clever dis-information, hoping to sway folk one way or another on the basis of a distorted pie-chart or a throw-away caption-contest photo. Even more scary is that there are folk on both sides stupid enough to be swayed by such claptrap. If you peddle the notion that voters can "upset" the English by voting YES then perhaps there might even be a landslide, particularly if you can supply a funny picture of Mrs Thatcher looking at a Kilt in a squinty manner.

Anyhow..

The "small c" conservative in me recognises that Scottish Independence would be a step in the dark and I don't fancy that.
The "Big C" Conservative in me imagines I would likely have to pay more than a fair share in order to take that step and I don't fancy that either really.
I also don't really like Mel Gibson or associate with guys with blue faces and big swords.

The truth is that there are so many unknowns in the equation that you are looking for technocratic detailed answers to philosophical political questions on the one hand, and getting political answers to technical, economic and monetary questions on the other.

As another Donald Rumsfeld succinctly made clear:

as we know, there are known knowns; there are things that we know that we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.



Anyhow.. I am out.
I am off to build an Injun

Ps..

My politics are somewhat dis-similar to renmure

They are???

Jeeze.. I knew you didn't have to be Scottish or have an Elise to get into Scottish Elises, but I did think there was some threshold you had to get over

[KingK_series]

but I'll tell you now there are a lot of people down south who are really upset that we don't have a vote concurrent with Scotland's.

What there are a lot of people in England who want to vote on England leaving the UK?

No there are a lot of people that realise that were Scotland to leave the UK there would be profound consequences for the UK as well as Scotland, not least in the pound debate, and people questioned in polls have repeatedly said that it is upsetting that only Scots have a say in this. - the question of the pound and the Bank of England being just one example.

I think the majority of English would be sad if Scotland left, feel a bit let down bur very respectful of the Scottish wish to do that if that was what happened in the referendum - don't forget the entire population of Scotland is only half that of just London.

What is different is Scotland's yes campaign saying that Scotland can keep any of the bits it want's regardless of how the English, Welsh or Irish think about that, and despite the clear absolute and unequivocal declaration by all three main political parties that Scotland cannot do that - in a way a lot of people I know and see in interview wish there was some means of expressing an opinion to back the political leaders to say - 'no if Scotland wants to go it's own way, that's very disappointing but if that is what Scotland wants, Scotland must found it's own institutions - including a bank of last resort and currency

- simply put, absolutely no one I know would ever want a "former UK Euro" - which is what Salmond and co are saying will happen regardless -


- now my question is - do voters in this referendum understand that? - because it seems from the interviews I have seen that many many people think that it will be ok to keep the Bank of England and the pound and that to say the contrary is bluff and bullying - ?

[Mr Momo]

I found some Jersey Pound notes yesterday, plus there are Isle of Man Pounds - what's the big deal ? Not sure the Bank of England made a good job of managing the banking sector in any case.

Denmark is about the same size as Scotland and manages with its own Kroner.

[renmure]

You are confusing pre-poll political posturing with what would be post election political reality. Both sides of the debate are playing to win. What they say they would do and what they know they would do are not necessarily the same thing.

Take ANY political policy from any pre election manifesto over the last umpteen elections and compare promises with specific performance and you will find only pragmatic compromise and self interest at the end.

If there is a YES vote, and if it is the best interests of the UK politicians (or the Scottish ones) to have a 100% about turn on what they had previously said, then you can be assured there will be new facts and figures available to justify any change in direction or detail. That is the realitity of politics

[j2 lot]

Denmark is about the same size as Scotland and manages with its own Kroner.

Yes but do you want to be trading in 'Lexs & Sturgeons'

I think the point is thought that if 'we ' were to operate our own currency we have no independant financial history and quite possibly will have just walked away from our share of the UK debt ( which Alex is clear is the consequence of denying us the £) so wont get a credit rating work having & will have punative levels of interest imposed on any currency and business dealings.

[pete]

This is a vote by the people of Scotland for whether they want self determination. That is why the English do not get a say in it.

Secondly, when it comes to who keeps I'm not sure you understand that it is about Scotland leaving the Union, and as such is more akin to a divorce whereas the Westminster parties would rather you believed it was more akin to a prodigal child being kicked out of the family home.

It's not up to them what we do or do not get to keep.

[David]

I'm sure, in the long term, there would be no problems for Scotland to have it own currency - just like Denmark or whatever. The problems I see is that if we continue to use the pound without a formal agreement, where will all the pounds come from? Government cash would depend on foreign currency reserves and, without the option to print money, there would be huge cash flow issue to pay all the public sector workers and public funded services over the first few years before the tax systems kicks in. The prospects of people not getting paid in the public sector would be very real.

[KingK_series]

You are confusing pre-poll political posturing with what would be post election political reality. Both sides of the debate are playing to win. What they say they would do and what they know they would do are not necessarily the same thing.

Take ANY political policy from any pre election manifesto over the last umpteen elections and compare promises with specific performance and you will find only pragmatic compromise and self interest at the end.

If there is a YES vote, and if it is the best interests of the UK politicians (or the Scottish ones) to have a 100% about turn on what they had previously said, then you can be assured there will be new facts and figures available to justify any change in direction or detail. That is the realitity of politics

so - this IS the nitty gritty I am trying to understand

you are saying that you believe Salmond, Sturgeon and Swinney are 100% right, and Cameron, Clegg, and Milliband, plus quite distinctly McPherson are wrong?

may I also ask - did you listen to the whole of Carney's speach?

[KingK_series]

I'm sure, in the long term, there would be no problems for Scotland to have it own currency - just like Denmark or whatever. The problems I see is that if we continue to use the pound without a formal agreement, where will all the pounds come from? Government cash would depend on foreign currency reserves and, without the option to print money, there would be huge cash flow issue to pay all the public sector workers and public funded services over the first few years before the tax systems kicks in. The prospects of people not getting paid in the public sector would be very real.

that is an option - and I'm sure Salmond and co are quite capable of minting pounds....lol!!

but with all due respect, it's only 2% of what the pound represents........... which is what the discussion is about and why it is so important


may I ask you - did you listen to all of Carney's speach?

[KingK_series]

I found some Jersey Pound notes yesterday, plus there are Isle of Man Pounds - what's the big deal ? Not sure the Bank of England made a good job of managing the banking sector in any case.

Denmark is about the same size as Scotland and manages with its own Kroner.

I think if Scotland were to choose to go it's own way that is what the remainder of the UK would expect.... but it's patently not what Salmond Sturgeon and Swinney want or say will happen


- and this is the issue - is this going to be debated, understood as an issue in the referendum debate? because it is critically important -

[KingK_series]

This is a vote by the people of Scotland for whether they want self determination. That is why the English do not get a say in it.

Secondly, when it comes to who keeps I'm not sure you understand that it is about Scotland leaving the Union, and as such is more akin to a divorce whereas the Westminster parties would rather you believed it was more akin to a prodigal child being kicked out of the family home.

It's not up to them what we do or do not get to keep.

Well the principal parties here, and I suspect the overwhelming majority of the people in the rest of the UK would absolutely disagree

1/ because the Pound and the Bank of England are the institutions of the UK - and if you vote to leave the UK you vote to leave the institutions

2 and secondly and much more importantly as Carney very diligently described in his speech the real issue is being able to control your own economy - put simply the rest of the UK is not for very practical reasons wanting to repeat the mistakes of the Euro, just because Salmond tells us we have to.


So - this to me is the problem -= the real issue is not being discussed in this debate, the no campaign is just about as uninformative as it could be and most people just have'nt taken in McPherson's comments or listen to Carney's very detailed analysis

- that in truth was why I was asking whether Scotland saw it's own Scottish BBC - because all the political comment on the day of Carney's speech were saying that Carney had been blindingly clear -

[BiggestNizzy]

I thought Carney's argument was a need for controls rather (to stop us doing a Greece) than not allowing us a seat on the bank of England board. Can't remember who said it but everything is negotiable to say something is off the table is not the way to enterinto any negotiation as it removes your bargaining chips.

If rUK plays hard and says no what will Scotland say no to? What would rUk do with Trident?, rUK would have to pay the Scottish banks £3- £4 Billion to buy back all that Scottish currency. rUK get's all the national debt. etc etc.

I personally don't see a yes vote winning as people get scared and are afraid to take risks it's definatly better the devil you know (thats why so many battered wifes stay with their husbands). I am suprised the yes campaign arn't making a bigger thing of the loss of the Barnett formula.

[David]

All national news is broadcast in Scotland. The majority of national political programming is also broadcast in Scotland. BBC Scotland does supplement this with its own local news and political programmes, and, IMHO, Scotland does have a better balanced coverage of the arguments and issues overall. But, quite rightly, its purpose is not to put the legal position (or any position for that matter) forward - as that is for the international courts to do, albeit that it'll be too late by then (for at least one side).