Brexit.

[PhilA]

What do the SNP want me to do

I'll do the opposite

or I'd like to be , but actually think we need to stay......

If we (UK) do vote to leave the EU, it's highly unlikely just now that Scotland will be in agreement so It will give the SNP renewed vigour and Independence talk will start afresh and I don't want the Nats to have an excuse.......

That highlights a very real problem for those resident here in Scotland who are Unionists, but want out the EU (I'm not saying I'm one of those - I'm undecided and simply hypothesising). There's a possibility, according to the SNP's rhetoric, that such a result could mean those folk could end up still in the EU and out of the UK!

One could therefore argue the referendum this side of the border will not be as free as it should be, as some will feel their choice isn't a choice.

totally agree, was thinking this too.

A leave vote in Dundee is the same value as a leave vote in Hull.
So, SNP saying Scotland already likely to vote Stay will mean that some Stay will not vote in Scotland as they think Scotland already will vote to... when in reality its every vote counts.
Similarly, Leaves may think theres no point, and so wont vote in Scotland.

I dislike this regionalisation of the argument - we are voting as UK, not Scotland/England etc.


I will be voting to stay, or whatever the wording will be.

[thinfourth]

Jeez nothing like a sore winner .

If we play that card we'll start asking the leave brigade how much the exit is going to cost... The CAA just ceded a ot of it's regulatory whatnot to EASA. That ain't going to be simple to unravel so I guess every other profession will be the same.

And in other news

Scottish widows have moved their registered office to london

One step closer to the SNP utopia with another evil employer leaving scotland

[Sanjøy]

I think Boris may regret his decision.

tut

That is disappointing from our PM in waiting, although for some reason I think it is part of a negotiation tactic we cannot see.

[thinfourth]

or I'd like to be , but actually think we need to stay......

If we (UK) do vote to leave the EU, it's highly unlikely just now that Scotland will be in agreement so It will give the SNP renewed vigour and Independence talk will start afresh and I don't want the Nats to have an excuse.......

That highlights a very real problem for those resident here in Scotland who are Unionists, but want out the EU (I'm not saying I'm one of those - I'm undecided and simply hypothesising). There's a possibility, according to the SNP's rhetoric, that such a result could mean those folk could end up still in the EU and out of the UK!

One could therefore argue the referendum this side of the border will not be as free as it should be, as some will feel their choice isn't a choice.

totally agree, was thinking this too.

A leave vote in Dundee is the same value as a leave vote in Hull.
So, SNP saying Scotland already likely to vote Stay will mean that some Stay will not vote in Scotland as they think Scotland already will vote to... when in reality its every vote counts.
Similarly, Leaves may think theres no point, and so wont vote in Scotland.

I dislike this regionalisation of the argument - we are voting as UK, not Scotland/England etc.


I will be voting to stay, or whatever the wording will be.

The question is

What do the SNP want me to do?

They say in public they want to stay in the EU

I would place a very healthy bet most SNP supporters want us to vote OUT as then they get back straight on with yet another once in a lifetime vote


The SNP are a bunch of lying idiots who will say or do anything that gets them an advantage but run terrified from any power. All they care about is taking revenge on the empire for something that happened X amount of years ago. Improving Scotland is WAY down the list of priorities

Pete -> How long have the Scottish government had the power to raise income tax? Answer-> Since 1998



When it was leaked that queen nicola wanted a Tory government it was complete honest truth.

As to suddenly find the SNP in government down south would mean they could not blame the english/westminster/toryvoters for anything that has ever happened which isn't good. The SNP needed a tory government so they could carry on being the victims


So the real question is

What do the SNP want me to do?

Their perfect result is england votes out and scotland votes IN

So if i vote OUT we might just get Scotland votes OUT as lets be honest most nationalists will be voting OUT so they can scream they have been forced out of the EU against their will.

[j2 lot]

While the voting is national, there will still be regional stats available. So the Nats will be praying for an out vote with a Scottish In vote. So I don't think there will be any Nats voting Out....

Tactical voting- but still not sure which tactics to employ......

[r10crw]

I dont believe we have had enough information to make a decision and doubt very much we will receive it, I do find it amazing how many are decided and therefore the rest are idiots. Really strong sense of that deja vu thing.

Im far from having made a decision but certainly entertain the idea of an exit, looking forward to the upcoming months having my ear bashed by everyone and their dog, although the ear bashing was and is almost entirely by SNP purists.

[rossybee]

Should the possibility of Trump being head honcho of the US of A affect my/our decision???

[robin]

I think that there are only three real issues at stake in this debate (ignoring for a moment the tangential conspiracy theories revolving around what the SNP want):

* Migration
* Economics
* Sovereign state

Migration divides into EU migrants (people who have every right to move around, live and work anywhere in the EU) and non-EU (which in turn splits into economic migrants, asylum seekers and refugees). Leaving the EU would only impact the EU migrants; regardless of your opinion of the non-EU migrants, there presence here is a function of them being able to travel at all, not whether or not we're in the EU.

There are some legitimate concerns about the rate of EU migration, though I would like to think that it's a thing that will sort itself out over time.

There are some legitimate concerns over our exposure to "benefit tourism", though I remain to be convinced that the cost of this behaviour is substantial in the big picture of our economy.

Benefits aside the economic issues are too complex for me to understand - I have no idea what import/export activities would be impacted by being out of Europe and what new activities would be possible outside of Europe that aren't possible inside it. I would like to think that if there are some "killer" examples that make the impact obvious, somebody is going to present them during the "debate". I would hope that the running costs of Europe, whilst outrageous, will not actually be so substantial as to dwarf genuine economic activity.

The sovereign state issue is really cultural - we want to be able to call something a sausage, regardless of meat content, without having some edict from Brussels allowing it. I am of the opinion that we could and probably should simply ignore a load of euro-nonsense of this type; just call it a sausage anyway - what are they going to do about it?

Cheers,
Robin

PS I note that the pound fell 2% against the dollar on news that Britain could leave the EU - I think that probably indicates that the money markets think it will be bad for our economy - though I don't really understand money markets, so who knows!

[robin]

Should the possibility of Trump being head honcho of the US of A affect my/our decision???

I don't think so - Trump will come and go - but our decision to be in/out of Europe is likely to be permanent (at least for the next 50 years, anyway).

[graeme]

In.....you have to be a brain dead retard, apart from knowing fcuk all about Economics or where we would stand without being part of the largest trading power in the World, to vote no.

http://www.scottishelises.com/phpbb/vie ... =2&t=39134

We need a second National Referendum to put these knobheads in their place and tell them where to stick their Directives.

Make your mind up, you brain dead retard!

[tut]

I would place a very healthy bet most SNP supporters want us to vote OUT as then they get back straight on with yet another once in a lifetime vote

That is a very good point

tut

[campbell]

Hi Campbell,

Not sure why you say that?

3 reasons

1. I genuinely can't work out which route I think is better

2. All the debate above

3. I posted my response at a bad moment in a bad weekend

I like Boris, and the fact he is now "exit" disappointed me. So that says my instinct is to stay.

I also like Dave, but haven't heard a compelling call from him on why staying is clearly best.

I do feel in many ways the issues are a bit more removed from me compared to the Indyref ones, but accept that they are just as important. Particularly for my children who'll bear the brunt of such decisions being wrest upon them by parents.

The twist / irony of what exit means for Indyref2 etc just serves to confuse me further.

Hence. We're screwed either way. LOL.

[Corranga]

I noticed that Stugeon didn't say we'll have IndyRef2 if Scotland votes to stay and the UK leaves, just if the UK leaves - so presumably the floodgates are being prepared for when the UK leaves due to Scotland's interdependences seekers all tactically voting to leave, but secretly wanting to stay

So far, I have an enormous feeling of deja vu, the country being separated again, and no one really knowing the facts. Hopefully the coming months and debates help to properly resolve this. IndyRef was a great demonstration of how farcical and fact-free politics can be (and IndyRef continues to do this now, though on a much smaller scale of course).

Chris

[woody]

They want to leave the union but stay in the other union. If that helps?

What like better together as I heard an SNP MP say without a hint of irony.

Jeez nothing like a sore winner .

If we play that card we'll start asking the leave brigade how much the exit is going to cost... The CAA just ceded a ot of it's regulatory whatnot to EASA. That ain't going to be simple to unravel so I guess every other profession will be the same.

Yeah, but they now audit on behalf of the FAA as well,so it's an even more tangled web.



My instinct says stay. Every time I listen to the the arguments to leave & find them plausible i look at the person saying it & consider (Boris excepted) if I tend towards their opinions on other matters. Thus far, I've always found I don't. Not sure that having the likes of Lawson speaking on behalf of leave (per Today, um, today) does them any favours. Post the DC deal, I'm more leave than I ever was as nothing that was gained was of any great relevance, bothered me or begun to address the issues of accountability & bureaucracy that seem endemic in the EU.

It's ultimetly quite nice having peace in Europe & while this is probably not entirely down to the EU, it's certainly a significant contributing factor (not that I'd expect that to change dramatically now either).

[Kelvin]

The CBI is a firm IN and their web-site sets out their reasons why. However, what no one can say is that had we never been in the EU would it still represent nearly half of our trade or not, would we have more Worldwide trade i.e. would our position be better or worse. It seems to me that this question is impossible to answer and any set of stats supporting one view could easily be trumped by a different set of stats opposing it. So the economic argument is a tough call to make for either camp but I'm happy to accept the view of the CBI as a fair representation of the facts such as they are.

Migration - the principle of free trade means that the free movement of labour should follow it. Everything I've read suggests that this free movement of labour is a net benefit to the UK economy and necessary if your indigenous workforce is ageing and you aren't producing enough of your own labour. Either this comes from the EU or it comes from elsewhere (or both). This free movement of labour is a core principle of the EU and is made possible by the Schengen agreement although it was operated separately to the EU up until the late 90s (1999 I think) What a lot of people seem to be unaware of is that the UK (and Ireland) has an opt out of the schengen agreement so sits outside it. Therefore we already have a lot more control over our immigration than a lot of people realise we just don't necessarily enforce it (or control it) There is no guarantee that this would be any better if we left the EU and in fact could be worse in some respects.

Sovereignty - we still retain the decision making powers over the vast majority of our sovereign affairs and it's really only in trade and where the EU has more control and this has been to our benefit (in my view) The stuff people get their knickers in a twist about is often to do with the ECHR which is in Strasbourg not Brussels and quite separate from the EU as all 47 members of the Council of Europe have signed up to it. And even here the vast majority of cases brought to it against the UK are struck out (98%+) Therefore, leaving the EU won't making any difference to the ECHR (or the the UN for that matter)

The reality is whether the UK is in the EU or not it will still be able to function and trade with the countries of the EU and elsewhere. It's a bit like the Scottish indy vote - the chances are that, in time, Scotland would have (will be able to?) make a go of it alone or a bit like a divorce - tough and costly at the time but after a while you get back on your feet. The question for me is, whether or not, on balance, it's better for countries to operate more closely than separately. The EU has it's problems and I'm suspicious of 'ever closer union' but I'll be voting in. I think the benefits of being part of the EU outweigh the negatives and we are more able to influence and change it from within.

We also want to retire to France in 10 years and this will be easier if we are in the EU I expect.