Track etiquette - letting the slow guys back in

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Shug
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Re: Track etiquette - letting the slow guys back in

Post by Shug » Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:29 pm

meatball wrote: The whole going round the inside of corners is alien to me as well.....I saw a couple of occasions where people were going round corners "rather close"....ie almost side by side......I think what happened was both cars hesitated and got left with no choice!
I don't see a problem there - the inside guy will certainly have slowed enough to make it round on the inside of the corner and the outside guy will get the point that he's left the pass too late - no way he's purposefully gonna turn in harder when there's a car to hit.

I'm not saying that you should pass like that, not at all. I'm saying that if someone has been dumb/misted enough and left it too late then it's safer doing that than having the slower guy stop or almost stop on a live track. Views?
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GregR
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Re: Track etiquette - letting the slow guys back in

Post by GregR » Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:31 pm

John, that seems very harsh. I've never had anything but the impeccable track etiquette from S_E chaps. Not sure when or with whom you would have found things to be different.

The other option is not to move over at the straight after the chicane - if you think you're constantly getting a raw deal and feel that you're hung out on a corner, then simply don't move over .. it may be the safest thing to do :)

I've never had a problem letting faster guys by - I prefer a clear track, and am quite happy to pootle round for a wee while to find it :)
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VXJON
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Re: Track etiquette - letting the slow guys back in

Post by VXJON » Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:46 pm

Shug wrote: If you're not on track to go to the limit of your capabilities or the cars, I don't see why you'd go on track in the first place? :?:



Its the guys who seem to be driving past the limits of the car/talent that I worry about, where every corner is a hit or miss gamble :shock:


I'm still a rookie track goer so perhaps the things that worry me, can be brushed aside by the more experienced guys but its my 2p worth in a worthwhile discussion on Se track standards. I'm sure that by addressing these issues more SE users will pop the trackday cherry
Last edited by VXJON on Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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meatball
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Re: Track etiquette - letting the slow guys back in

Post by meatball » Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:50 pm

I think that different people have different abilities.
Most would be happy to pax with tut driving his car at the edge of their capabilities.......would they say the same with me trying the same?
I always like that bit of room for error, whether the error is mine or otherwise?

My point regarding the two going round the corner at the same time was that it may cause a distraction.......

Jon, did you ever say anything to these SE'rs?
That isn't a dig, I'm just aware that there seems to have been a couple of sets of different rules that people have been following.
Hence why I've asked people to point out my own failings (please do it in the appropriate manner! :wink: ) as I am a novice/n00bie

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Re: Track etiquette - letting the slow guys back in

Post by DDtB » Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:52 pm

VXJON wrote: Ive felt for a while that some of the SE guys have little consideration for new track users, it was one of the main reasons I didnt do more KH days in the vx last year and perfer the sprint/hillclimb type events.
umm... iirc you only did 1 or 2 days in the VX at KH... an SIDC or two and a Hot Marques... and that Hot Marques you did had shocking driving standards on it from several fannies driving badly in sierra 4x4s etc... so not really fair.

I think the SE standards on track are generally better than most, with only the odd red mist situation. I know I flash folk back online if I have any doubt about getting past (I've got the vids to prove it :P )

My only 'suggestion' would be for some of the higher powered cars to actually lift at the start of the straight when letting you past, rather than keep the foot down and lift at the end, just before they come back on line. e.g. there's been a few times where I go to pass someone on the main straight, for them to keep their foot in right up to the bridge, then they lift a wee bit to let me past at the last minute... not ideal really and if there are any faster cars behind me, you can bet they'll be trying to dive past too in frustration!! Not having a dig at anyone specific, but my car can't get past a supercharged exige on the straights unless the driver lifts!!!!!

Might also be an idea to re-instate the 'P' plate or Post-It note in the rear window idea for some of the newer drivers... so that they get a bit more consideration?!?

In summary... the best advice I got when I got grumpy about always being forced out of the way on track, was "drive faster then!".. :wink:

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Re: Track etiquette - letting the slow guys back in

Post by mac » Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:58 pm

I guess a lot this comes down to what you've been "brought up" with. When Shug & I started doing track days there was very little in the way of rules - you still weren't allowed to pass on the corners but there was nothing stopping you from passing on the left, right or under brakes.

From our point of view the trackdays are much safer and the driving standards much better.



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Re: Track etiquette - letting the slow guys back in

Post by Andy G » Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:59 pm

The difference between a trackday and a race session or even testing are huge. The only people I've ever seen going that hard, or being anything like that aggressive have been black flagged.

When i'm behind someone I almost drive it like a yellow flag, slow down, and bring the car under full control, so if they spin, go off, the car is in perfect balance and set-up to respond in the most appropriate manner.

At the same time, the track is the best place to explore the limits of car and driver, as Shug says, although how close you want to come to either is at the individual discretion.

I still try and read the body language of the car infront (at all times really), and often the pack of cars in front of them if its a que, and have backed off (or f*** off on the next straight :wink: ) when I'm not comfortable with the car in fronts driving, some times for good reason, sometimes just because it looks worse than it is and the chap in front really can hold those angles :mrgreen: (as John says " a hit or miss gamble") I've done similar because of people behind (although thats not such an issue for the Atom unless its wet). Maintaining this practice has saved me a lot of times, when people have lost it.

I think another thing Jon might be getting more uncomfortable with is in the 7 like the Atom the thought of being hit is a bit more personally concerning :shock:

Point being, as Campbell has said before, if your not comfortable, come in and have a breather. If someones been a bit rude/discourteous or dangerous then have a quiet word with them or the marshall. Let the red mist, or annoyance pass, and get back on having fun. :thumbsup

We had one at the AMP3 tracknight, where my Uncle was enjoying chasing Lotus's so much he wasn't co-operating as much as he usually does, some one was annoyed at him not lifting on the straights, and told me. I had a quiet word, issue was closed, and he was embarrassed ( he was having the time of his life and totally oblivious to the annoyance he was causing!) :mrgreen:

I have had great laughs by taking it in turns to follow the other driver and see where they are quicker through corners, lines and breaking points. McKean and i drove each other around Dijon to see where we were going right/wrong (although I think i learnt more i from him :damnfunny ) although he declined getting in to my car for a pax round Charade :damnfunny

I still maintain that overall and given the traffic last Friday i thought it went pretty well all told, although I'm sure there were one or 2 issues.

There's a huge ambition in SE as a group to get more and more people out enjoying their talents in their Loti.

Worst thing that can happen is a prang at a trackday for all concerned :cry:
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Re: Track etiquette - letting the slow guys back in

Post by LittleMorvy » Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:15 pm

Im thinking I may have to install my 'L' plates to the elise for my first track day so everyone knows Im new to it :lol:
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Re: Track etiquette - letting the slow guys back in

Post by Karen » Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:53 pm

LittleMorvy wrote:Im thinking I may have to install my 'L' plates to the elise for my first track day so everyone knows Im new to it :lol:
Morven, let me know when you're doing your first track day and I'll join you with the L Plates! I was talking to Campbell about this on Sunday as I too am terrified of the faster guys on track, hence the reason I haven't been on track in the Lotus. Perhaps the learners could get 10 minutes on the track on their own :D
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Re: Track etiquette - letting the slow guys back in

Post by Victor Meldrew » Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:56 pm

mckeann wrote:
campbell wrote:
ok for "braking board" read "your chosen safe braking point"...which for me on the pit straight is the bridge as people well know (last of the late brakers me!!!)

OK, OK, you can have a free lesson
Me too?... finger out and give me some dates..
Well it moves... might as well make the most of it....

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Re: Track etiquette - letting the slow guys back in

Post by Victor Meldrew » Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:04 pm

Passing the slower car isnt the only way to get a free run. If your at the end of a train of cars, pull in and do a drive through, good chance of getting into free space when you get back out.

If you are third or fourth in line and you have the momentum to get past it is only natural that you will want to have a go, it needs good cooperation from all drivers on track with the newbies or the slower cars needing to be not so pussy footing about when it comes to letting faster cars through and at the same time, making damn sure the car behind knows when they are moving back on line again.. good use of the indicator in both directions is essential.

The car being overtaken has right of way in any circumstance untill the move is done and dusted.

So, basically what has been said before...
Well it moves... might as well make the most of it....

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Re: Track etiquette - letting the slow guys back in

Post by Jinty » Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:34 pm

Thank Dezzy for posting this !

As you all know Friday was my first night at Knockhill and I had immense fun !

My problem was I didn't know what to do about getting back into the line after pulling over to let the faster cars by (my ignorance sorry) and a few times was left hugging the corner at Clarks. I know now that I lifted off too much for letting other cars by and then found it hard to get back into the line. I didn't know whether I was being reckless doing that so spoke to Dezzy after I came off track (I would like to add that this was in the last 25mins or so and the track was getting busy again).
I didn't want to upset anyone with my shoddy driving so took advice after I came into the pits speaking to a couple of people (thanks Mandy and Dezzy)about it.

I am going to get a track plate for the car (oh yes sadly I'm going back on track) so everyone knows who's car it is and that I am a novice/newbie to Knockhill.

I have loads to learn !

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Re: Track etiquette - letting the slow guys back in

Post by Andy G » Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:36 pm

always welcome to grab another Se'er to take out as a sacrafice, sorry passenger, if your worried or nervous or unsure :thumbsup
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Re: Track etiquette - letting the slow guys back in

Post by kenny » Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:49 pm

L plates are not a bad idea, even better a big sticker across the back with

JESUS CHRIST!, KEEP THE HELL OUT THE WAY, DON'T YOU KNOW I'M A NOOB?

Joking aside, if you make it clear to others that you are new to it or just want additional room it's no bad idea. Might not work so well on other trackdays but I imagine John Stewart wouldn't mind including a note about it in the at SIDC days if we asked and of course future SE trackdays could be well breifed of it.

To be honest I am probably guilty of getting too close to people at times. It's not always easy to tell who is who if I dont know the registration or recognise the car. Helping me help you would be step in the right direction.

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Re: Track etiquette - letting the slow guys back in

Post by Digital » Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:50 pm

Interesting thread, one I would have posted myself not too long ago actually... I thought the driving standards last Friday were excellent (better than Sunday's shorter session in fact). In fact, I have to say that you were very courteous in moving over for me Dezzy, and Heather too, much appreciated :thumbsup Hope no-one was offended by any of my driving!

I'm still inclined to let people past when I don't really need to, the typical scenario being when you're letting a queue of traffic (including some slower cars at the tail end of the queue) past. It can then become difficult to get going again, as you are constantly slowing down to let someone past, whereupon the next batch of cars appears and it's hard to get back up to speed again.

It still surprises me how long it can take some people to notice theres' a car behind them (I'm talking in general terms here, no-one springs to mind) - I'll check my mirrors all the time as there are few things more intimidating than a fast car suddenly appearing right on your back bumper. As a track newbie my first concern was always to make sure I wasn't getting in anyone elses way - I want people to pass on my terms, so being ready for them makes it a lot easier. I can only ever recall seeing the blue flag used once (last Friday in fact), although in that case the driver in front was well aware of my presence and was moving over to let me past anyway.

When it's me doing the overtaking, I do like to make a point of a wave to the other driver to thank them for letting me past, similarly I'll use a flash of the lights to let people back on line, which I've very rarely seen anyone else do unfortunately.

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