Syria.

[j2 lot]

[pete]

This is an interesting take on it
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34172729

That seems to make a lot of sense.

To paraphrase.
"Germany has a falling population and may find it useful to get loads of hard working, grateful immigrants."

"The UK on the other hand has a rising population and doesn't want a load of ungrateful benefit scroungers."

(Note. The immigrants in each story are the same people.)

[pete]

All EU doors should be firmly, brutally closed to those who make the journey themselves. Those who succeed only encourage others to follow, and that results in lack of official records, but worse, a huge loss of life and criminal profiteering along the way. Syrians must, at all financial costs to us, be incentivised NOT to make the journey, and to stay as close to home as possible (just far enough away from danger).

Graeme, I'm shocked.

OK. On paper it's not utterly insane but how long will your Syrians and their families be living in this camp?
The war has been going for what, 4 years?
How much longer are you going to stay in the camp living on charity?
No future, no life just waiting on a civil war you have no control over to end.

What of compassion?

[robin]

Pete, Graeme's point makes sense - assuming we (Europe) are going to start a bigger program of taking in refugees then it would be far better to organise transport from a safe location close to their origin than to have the refugees risk crime and death making their own way here. I would argue a slightly different approach - start to bring them from the refugee camps at a rate that looks like it's worth staying at the camp and waiting to deter others from risking the travel here ... but continue to try to take in those showing up at the borders too.

Of course it will cost an unimaginable fortune to do this properly - I would guess we're looking at 20 million people in the coming year or so - assuming they need housing, health care, education, etc., then I would guess order 100 billion euro - but most of that will be spent in Europe so the cash will flow through the local economies. They'll just have to print more ... but there will come a point where we really cannot do it (imagine 200 million people needing the same kind of help).

Cheers,
Robin

[j2 lot]

It is better to formally accept those seeking entry and getting them in the system and hopefully into employment so there is eventually a return in taxes and contribution to society. If they turn up illegally they will more than likely beg, steal or mug their way to survive initially and any employment they gain will be under the radar with no contribtion to anything legal.
The real quandary is how to stop them arriving and that has to be action at source

[greido]

Nice to see a bit of debate and differing thoughts on what is a very divisive subject; personally, I am not close to what's going on but I do like to see things from every angle so thanks for sharing your opinions.
I am not convinced about either argument regarding the refugees but I do feel totally behind the PM when he spoke about the strikes against the British ISIL members; I'm more than slightly perturbed by the response of Harriet Harman and Kevin Brennan (labour MP for Cardiff West) who only seemed to be outraged that the paperwork hadn't been published and that there might be questions from Opposition MPs and members of his family.

[robin]

I doubt they will ever publish details of the alleged terrorist threat to the UK.

Without those details it is hard to know that what is being done in our name is legal.

Of course there is the perspective that is a technicality and actually it would be OK to target these individuals regardless of any threat they may or may not pose to the UK. Taken to its extreme we would shoot them as they queue up to board the plane to Turkey.

I feel sorry for their families. At least one of them had a normal kid who was radicalised and ended up dead. I would happily deport anyone involved in this radicalisation process to Syria!

Cheers,
Robin

[tut]

I fail to see why it matters what Country IS terrorists are from when they are targeted.

The fact that they were UK citizens is immaterial, it was legal, and there is evidence that they were planning an attack on this Country. Hopefully they will continue to wipe out any others that they are able to identify, as for Harmon, what more would you expect from the Opposition.

tut

[graeme]

All EU doors should be firmly, brutally closed to those who make the journey themselves. Those who succeed only encourage others to follow, and that results in lack of official records, but worse, a huge loss of life and criminal profiteering along the way. Syrians must, at all financial costs to us, be incentivised NOT to make the journey, and to stay as close to home as possible (just far enough away from danger).

Graeme, I'm shocked.

OK. On paper it's not utterly insane but how long will your Syrians and their families be living in this camp?
The war has been going for what, 4 years?
How much longer are you going to stay in the camp living on charity?
No future, no life just waiting on a civil war you have no control over to end.

What of compassion?

You're not listening/reading, Pete. Without total rejection at the borders, there will be more death and drowning and criminal trafficking. More drowned 3 year old boys. More truck loads of dead bodies. More criminal profiteering.

We're not turning these people back, we're getting them off the streets of Calais and into the system they should have been in in the first place. From there they will be cared for and brought here when we're ready to receive them.

UK is closed, except through arriving at a UN camp and registering. From there we must take as many as we can. Far more than 20,000 over 5 years, Mr Cameron!

[pete]

All EU doors should be firmly, brutally closed to those who make the journey themselves. Those who succeed only encourage others to follow, and that results in lack of official records, but worse, a huge loss of life and criminal profiteering along the way. Syrians must, at all financial costs to us, be incentivised NOT to make the journey, and to stay as close to home as possible (just far enough away from danger).

Graeme, I'm shocked.

OK. On paper it's not utterly insane but how long will your Syrians and their families be living in this camp?
The war has been going for what, 4 years?
How much longer are you going to stay in the camp living on charity?
No future, no life just waiting on a civil war you have no control over to end.

What of compassion?

You're not listening/reading, Pete. Without total rejection at the borders, there will be more death and drowning and criminal trafficking. More drowned 3 year old boys. More truck loads of dead bodies. More criminal profiteering.

We're not turning these people back, we're getting them off the streets of Calais and into the system they should have been in in the first place. From there they will be cared for and brought here when we're ready to receive them.

UK is closed, except through arriving at a UN camp and registering. From there we must take as many as we can. Far more than 20,000 over 5 years, Mr Cameron!

You're right. I didn't read your post properly but I suspect that once the problem was removed to a camp in someone else's country then that is where that problem would stay. I think this is only getting attention from Europe because the individuals are getting to Europe.

I agree with greido too it is good too see different opinions - especially on a subject like this where I don't have a firm opinion myself. I heard a Church leader on the radio the other morning wringing his hands and stating something must be done. But he didn't seem to know what that something was and all I really learnt was that he didn't like seeing pictures of dead children with his cornflakes.
I've learnt more here.

[pete]

I would happily deport anyone involved in this radicalisation process to Syria!

Cheers,
Robin

I find that whole subject to be fascinating, how the hell does one become radicalised? How are young women from Britain, seeing the millions fleeing the area on the news, convinced into thinking that it is a suitable holiday destination for them?

[Jamie Satriani]

A simple answer to that question ... Religous brainwashing, obviously there are other factors involved but that is the main one, radical beliefs.

This Youtube video here is well worth a watch, absolutely certain to spark some debate im sure!.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... BDqzmG-rH8

[robin]

I don't claim to understand it ...

[David]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... BDqzmG-rH8

10% fact, 90% bigoted racism. Refugees are not a sub class or culture. Prior to conflict, they were part of a successful and well educated country. They will, in time, put many ethnic Europeans to shame.

[pete]

I don't claim to understand it ...

Well that's simply unacceptable.