Has anybody changed their vote about independence??

[SAJ]

Truth be told I don't know what to believe anymore, so many lies and misinformation going about.

I don't think I could truly say I could make an informed vote.

[campbell]

I wasn't saying Simon was wrong as such.

I'm just inviting all contributors to keep the debate clean. In the spirit of good future cross-border relations.

We are to be neighbours, you know

[neil]

I wasn't saying Simon was wrong as such.

I'm just inviting all contributors to keep the debate clean. In the spirit of good future cross-border relations.

We are to be neighbours, you know

Was that not pretty much the better together campaign message though? "We can't afford to be on our own and need England to prop us up" It's odd that those south of the border picked up on it

[campbell]

It can be any way that anyone wants to twist it!

I'm currently looking forward to the plans of how Scotland makes revenue with the oil price less than half the SNP forecast figure and with decommissioning discussions dominating North Sea ops.

Financial Services, anyone?

Large scale manufacturing?

Electronics?

Maybe biotech?

No? Unsure?

Did anyone get am answer from the Headmaster of Europe about us joining their school after we're expelled from the UK? No word back as yet? Ah.

Like I say. Seeking facts and a few grown up answers. Not a great white hope.

[neil]

So basically we're screwed whatever happens

[campbell]

It has been looking that way for many years, Neil.

Perhaps even before the SNP got involved.

[pete]

It can be any way that anyone wants to twist it!

I'm currently looking forward to the plans of how Scotland makes revenue with the oil price less than half the SNP forecast figure and with decommissioning discussions dominating North Sea ops.

Financial Services, anyone?

Large scale manufacturing?

Electronics?

Maybe biotech?

No? Unsure?

Did anyone get am answer from the Headmaster of Europe about us joining their school after we're expelled from the UK? No word back as yet? Ah.

Like I say. Seeking facts and a few grown up answers. Not a great white hope.

That is not a positive outlook, and I'm always surprised to hear it from you as you're normally relentlessly cheerful.

The implication of this position is that you consider your country to be largely what? A dormitory region of England, surfing on their productivity?

I bet that's not really the case.

[pete]

Sadly Simons not entirely wrong though - because of the constant portrayal of Sturgeon being the voice of Scotland, the rUK do have us down as ungrateful cousins always wanting extra pocket money. That is her aim really creating enemies of our nearest neighbour serves to nurture unrest.

Oh of course he's wrong. There are a lot of English people who consider Scotland to be far more progressive than England, which in their eyes is a good thing.

Of course some other English people think we are scroungers, and presumably it's them Simon is speaking for although that would seem odd, as he knows us and we aren't scroungers. Well at least not now all the contractors have gone PAYE.

[Rosssco]

I wasn't saying Simon was wrong as such.

I'm just inviting all contributors to keep the debate clean. In the spirit of good future cross-border relations.

We are to be neighbours, you know

Was that not pretty much the better together campaign message though? "We can't afford to be on our own and need England to prop us up" It's odd that those south of the border picked up on it

No, that's not what BT said at all.

They stated that currently (and for the foreseeable future) Scotland benefits from the UK through fiscal transfer to support the large fiscal hole in our budget between current spending levels and income. In addition, it allows seamless access to our biggest (by far) trade market - the rUK.

We shouldn't be embarrassed (as some who posted seem to be) by being net recipients - if you factors in NS oil & gas receipts over the last 4 decades, Scotland has contributed its fair share, only now in recent years is it receiving it back, making it precisely the wrong time (economically) to turn our backs on the UK.

I would urge anyone with interest in the actual economic reality (he uses GERS figures, actual numbers, graphs and references, and is an actual Scottish successful business owner) to read and make you're own mind up.

http://chokkablog.blogspot.co.uk/2016/0 ... dence.html

As per arguments of old, there have been NO credible arguments put forward by Indy supporters (same as last time) as to how they would diversify and grow the Scottish economy. Nothing. I think that's what Campbell is partly aluding too - there is no real information, just hyperbole and words..

[Corranga]

Truth be told I don't know what to believe anymore, so many lies and misinformation going about.

I don't think I could truly say I could make an informed vote.

...and this is why there shouldn't be any referendums in the first place.
We elect a Government to act on our behalf. They are the experts. I don't want to live in a country run by armchair warriors. Let's, for example, talk about 'nuclear deterrents.' As a country, our government employs a large military, and lots of military experts way more qualified than someone with Facebook and a meme generator to talk about the issues, yet location and having nuclear weapons is a constant agenda point. Let's get rid of them, and dissolve our armed forces too, they cost money. We can all wear grass skirts and flowers in our hair whilst we watch as some terrorist / other country / business comes in and blows us off the planet - all whilst the keyboard parade no doubt make memes about how useless our government are.

That is not a positive outlook, and I'm always surprised to hear it from you as you're normally relentlessly cheerful.

The implication of this position is that you consider your country to be largely what? A dormitory region of England, surfing on their productivity?

I bet that's not really the case.

I don't think you can draw conclusions of what we think Scotland is based upon the lack of knowledge our government want to push our way. Well, I guess you can. We are a country with a government who believe a very small majority of our fellow citizens have the right to make a guess that could potentially lead to anything, but it's fine because it's on page 1 of the manifesto. The same government who didn't listen to a small majority of saying they didn't want it.
Perhaps page 2 seeks autarky through a closed economy. I wouldn't know, they only talk about page 1, and shovel out lies and deceit to support it.


Government works best when there is a strong opposition to keep them honest.
The SNP are having their day because the other parties are in turmoil.
South of the border, the Tories are having their day, because the other parties are in turmoil.
Scotland are paying the price.

[c8rkh]

Is just Scotland paying the price,or are most parts of the UK suffering along similar lines?

Funny about the political power debate. I don't remember anyone in England bitching and moaning and being anti-Scottish to any large degree when for 12 years the Scottish Block Labour vote kept those muppets from New Labour in Power in the UK. As soon as the shoe is on the other foot, my god the whinging and whining about an "English" majority voted for Conservative Government abusing Scotland is unbelieveable. There is a definite "have your cake and eat it" view that comes across in the Scottish Media and politics that actually shows up how narrow minded things are here.

A little as 20 years ago, Scotland had by far the best education and health system in the UK. It was leaps and bounds ahead of the rUK. It's not any more and that's after a long time of self government through devolution and almost 10 years of the SNP in power. Rather than this constant whinging and blaming of everything on Westminster the first thing we need to do if we are truly to be a successful independent nation is to take responsibility and accountability for the powers we have. Something we have not done for 12 years. So, why do we need more powers when we haven't used the ones we have?

No, it's not Westminster that has done for Scotland, it's our own devolved parliament and the by and large the useless and feckless MSP's WE elected.

[pete]

Is just Scotland paying the price,or are most parts of the UK suffering along similar lines?

Funny about the political power debate. I don't remember anyone in England bitching and moaning and being anti-Scottish to any large degree when for 12 years the Scottish Block Labour vote kept those muppets from New Labour in Power in the UK. As soon as the shoe is on the other foot, my god the whinging and whining about an "English" majority voted for Conservative Government abusing Scotland is unbelieveable. There is a definite "have your cake and eat it" view that comes across in the Scottish Media and politics that actually shows up how narrow minded things are here.

The the last two parliaments that Scottish votes made a difference to were... (drum roll) 1974 and 2010. New Labour didn't get elected thanks to a Scottish blcok vote (surprised me too when I first read it).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general ... he-UK.html


I agree there is some noise about a Tory govt, but that's understandable - they are just looking fro a peg to hang their ideology on. What confuses me more is the whole EVEL thing when the West Lothian question has had bugger all impact yet is a source of distress for English MPs and wastes Westminster time. But hey, I get it's a "moral" question it just seems a lot of fuss about nothing.

[Rosssco]

Pete, your comments seem to come down more on the Scot nationalist side of things (not saying you are one), but why should Scotland as about 9% of the population get to be a major influence on the UK election result? All Scottish votes will have an effect, but just because we have not been the deciding factor, doesn't mean there's some democratic issue. I think over the last 100 year or so, Scotland has voted in line with the elected UK gov party around 50% of the time, which is comparable to most other parts of the UK, including London.

Things are a lot more complex now that we have the Scottish Parliament of course, meaning we "do always get the government we vote for" which covers virtually all local services and issues (the ones that affect peoples lives most, which they seem to be not doing too well at currently), and we have proportionate (although historically greater) influence on the wider union of nations. I think that's a perfectly 'moral' agreement, but of course it doesn't mean we ALWAYS get our own way..

[campbell]

It can be any way that anyone wants to twist it!

I'm currently looking forward to the plans of how Scotland makes revenue with the oil price less than half the SNP forecast figure and with decommissioning discussions dominating North Sea ops.

Financial Services, anyone?

Large scale manufacturing?

Electronics?

Maybe biotech?

No? Unsure?

Did anyone get am answer from the Headmaster of Europe about us joining their school after we're expelled from the UK? No word back as yet? Ah.

Like I say. Seeking facts and a few grown up answers. Not a great white hope.

That is not a positive outlook, and I'm always surprised to hear it from you as you're normally relentlessly cheerful.

The implication of this position is that you consider your country to be largely what? A dormitory region of England, surfing on their productivity?

I bet that's not really the case.

You're right. I am not positive about it.

I have been concerned about Scotland's productivity for a long time but it's a much wider matter than that. I believe that in a global economy you need scale. It sounds cheesy but "better together" does sum it up.

[kenny]

The thought of another 2 years of this is utterly grim.

My industry had only just emerged from the worst recession in living memory to be greeted by what now looks like being, in total, over 7 years of uncertaintly and lack of investment. Like fat Eck before her, nippy Nicola sees herself being on a statue one day. Saviour of Scotland! Oh and bugger the economy along the way, as long as I get my statue.

The information we have been getting from property developers, agents and investors is that the market is likely to take a hefty hit. Bleak, seems to be the buzzword.

The argument for indy2 is that "scotland is being taken out of the eu against the will of the people". The SNP have managed to convince many of the thickos that follow them that a yes vote means automatic continuation of eu membership. Anyone with a modicum of common sense realises that Spain (probably along with several other countries) will veto Scotlands entry.

No one I have spoken to who voted remain has said they will vote yes in indy2 to attempt stay within the eu.

That said, I am all for indy2 but on 2 conditions.

1) as soon as it is agreed there will be an indy2 it must be held within 1 month.
2) If it is a no, all SNP politicians must resign immediately and sign a legal document stating they now have to stfu on indepence from now until the end of time.