Footage of Bianchi's crash

[David]

I see my 'full' video link has been replaced with a cut down version and a bit pixelated out. The legal cogs are turning . . .

[woody]

http://formerf1doc.wordpress.com/2014/10/07/2271/

I've not been a fan of his during the Schumacher injury business, but this blog post by Gary Hartstein illustrates the erosion of yellow respect he witnessed during his attendance at drivers' briefings.

Of course, we still don't know if Bianchi didn't suffer a car failure?

Keep up at the back!

Benefit of the doubt until Bianchi (hopefully) tells us himself what happened.

It wasn't so much the blog but a couple of the comments on Human Factors & how we perform that I found excellent, though that is up my street. There are a lot more comments now and I couldn't see them again with a quick search.

[Mellow Yellow]

yup, that marshall should definitely have been displaying double waved yellows and the next marshall post nearer degner 1 displaying a green flag. I think the speed factor would be down to the short distance from the track to the barrier and the fact it was really wet / aquaplaning.

eh?

the green flag at that post is correct, the post is after the incident (all be it only just) but still after.

it denotes the end of the caution zone, it does not mean as soon as you see it, you can boot it though, you have to be past it.

I agree, the green flag is correct, I remember noticing it during the race from an on board shot, and thinking it looked odd, then realising it was after the accident.

Some serious speed being carried in there, and a LOT of movement on that JCB considering its weight. My brain still tells me the car should be travelling backwards though!

I see both your points and the rule states a staitionary, not waved green flag immediately at the observation post after the incident. My point is the observation post is right next to the accident therefore to me common sense would mean the green flag should have been the next again observation post. Taking into account that corner is a blind up hill left hander so the drivers would be unable to see the accident till on the crest of the hill; they would see the green flag first though due to the height of the observation tower. Waving a green flag directly below where marshals are in the line of danger to me is madness. Is there a video that shows the tower after the incident, I can only see it being right alongside it.

Maybe I need glasses lol

[robin]

Regardless of where they can see the green flag from, they must not speed up until they are passed the green flag. So you can quibble about whether or not the green flag makes sense but it should have had no influence on this accident either way.

I read the human factors stuff on that blog too and agree that what we should be doing is eliminating the driver from the "appropriate speed" decision making process. They have no incentive to slow down except to avoid penalties. The risk of crashing is clearly one they discount all day long.

Cheers,
Robin

[Mellow Yellow]

Regardless of where they can see the green flag from, they must not speed up until they are passed the green flag. So you can quibble about whether or not the green flag makes sense but it should have had no influence on this accident either way.

I read the human factors stuff on that blog too and agree that what we should be doing is eliminating the driver from the "appropriate speed" decision making process. They have no incentive to slow down except to avoid penalties. The risk of crashing is clearly one they discount all day long.

Cheers,
Robin

I prefer to think of it as debating, you make a good point on the flags.

On removing the decision of the drivers, then they are not drivers. Tougher control through penalties over speeding under waved flags and using static cranes only like in Monaco surely would prevent something like that happening again without completely sanitising it.

[Mikie711]

I think we need to keep a little perspective here. One incident doesn't mean you need to change the way things are done. Need to wait and find out why he was going so fast when he should have been slowing then look at IF mitigation is warranted before rewriting the rule book.
i for one don't really see what is wrong with the way they do things now. If they were to introduce safety cars every time a car stopped on track then the race would take hours and hours to finish and run into the 2 hour limit. That and it would end up being more boring than it is now.

[campbell]

Thorough article on recent history of F1 safety here, by Andrew Benson

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/29539692

Derek Warwick calls for "no knee-jerk" and I completely agree. Current signs point to the driver simply travelling too fast. They all take that fundamental risk when they pull on their helmets and climb aboard. In this case, with dreadful weather conditions, they have the choice to pit or to drive slowly. DC was doing the latter in Spa in similar conditions. Schumy had chosen to run much faster. Then rear-ended him.

Will be interesting to hear the chat in Russia this weekend.

[robin]

I think the driver needs to have a speed limit for double waved flags to protect the marshalls.

We already have this in the pitlane and under safety car conditions (target lap time on steering wheel).

I am sure a system could be devised and enforced. It has nothing to do with the drivers not being drivers - it is simply recognizing that they ARE drivers.

Cheers,
Robin

[Shug]

I think the driver needs to have a speed limit for double waved flags to protect the marshalls.

We already have this in the pitlane and under safety car conditions (target lap time on steering wheel).

I am sure a system could be devised and enforced. It has nothing to do with the drivers not being drivers - it is simply recognizing that they ARE drivers.

Cheers,
Robin

Already happens at Le Mans. Albeit hugely slow - but they have 60kph (IIRC, might be 100) sectors in crash areas. Not long introduced.

[graeme]

I think the driver needs to have a speed limit for double waved flags to protect the marshalls.

We already have this in the pitlane and under safety car conditions (target lap time on steering wheel).

I am sure a system could be devised and enforced. It has nothing to do with the drivers not being drivers - it is simply recognizing that they ARE drivers.

Cheers,
Robin

Already happens at Le Mans. Albeit hugely slow - but they have 60kph (IIRC, might be 100) sectors in crash areas. Not long introduced.

...and works really well IMO. Extremely fair, maintains pre-incident advantages/gaps instead of bunching everyone up behind a safety car and effectively changing the outcome of the race, is technically very easy to implement and monitor (no different to pitlane limiter), keeps the cars running and removes all the diving into the pits, and most of all creates a very safe environment for marshals to work without the hassle of a red flag restart.

I can't get enough of WEC. My favourite series I think. Fuji this weekend!

[graeme]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/29551563

Damn, I used to like Perez...

[j2 lot]

Rather frustrating ' blame someone else' attitude from Perez, time he grew a pair and accepted the drivers have to have some responsibility for their own destiny rather than demand the FIA do it all.
Grojean on the other hand it unlucky and we know the risks and accept that we take them.

[Mellow Yellow]

I think the comments from Perez and the other guys, Massa specifically are probably a result of them still being in shock, especially the drivers that are close to Jules. None of the current grid have had to deal with something this grim in their F1 careers before. Totally agree though, racing is dangerous and there will always be an element of risk.

[Mellow Yellow]

Rossi in at Marussia. Interesting.

[vet111s]

Quote from Perez
He said that drivers slowed down as little as possible even for double yellow flags.
"You know you have to show a lift of the throttle to the FIA," Perez said.
"But if we are honest we know we want to lift as little as possible and go as fast as possible.

From marshall's handbook

Double waved yellow flags

Which Should Mean:

Something Is Very Wrong
You or Others Are in Great Danger
Be Aware of Trackside Situation/Activity/Snatch
Look For Stationary Cars or Personnel on the Track

The two don't hang together. Lends weight to what Gary hartstein was saying about flag discipline.
That's not to say that bianchi was in the wrong in the slightest, we may never know what led him to the scene of the accident