Track etiquette - letting the slow guys back in

[dezzy]

Im thinking I may have to install my 'L' plates to the elise for my first track day so everyone knows Im new to it

Morven, let me know when you're doing your first track day and I'll join you with the L Plates! I was talking to Campbell about this on Sunday as I too am terrified of the faster guys on track, hence the reason I haven't been on track in the Lotus. Perhaps the learners could get 10 minutes on the track on their own

Karen/Morvy, please don't let me starting this thread put you off! I just want to re-iterate that this only happened a couple of times and I really only posted it to get a few different viewpoints on it because it has been going through my head after experiencing it myself on Friday and I've been chatting to Heather about it ever since, and also because Jinty and I discussed it on Friday night. The general standards of SE driving is superb, and so are the SIDC days. I highly recommend getting out on track for the first time! You'll love it!

Frankly, the problem is the people who are prepared to force this to be an issue. It's a track day; if you want to mix it in the corners, take up racing. If you want to keep doing track days, make sure the person on the inside can rejoin the line before the corner, even if it does mean you need to slow down a fair bit. People driving bumper to bumper up the main straight will obviously need to be thinking that they guy in front might slow unusually early for a corner to allow a slower car back onto line; if you drive up someone's chuff in this situation, I have no sympathy with you.

Couldn't agree more Robin. I'm not fussed about getting back on the racing line because I need the fastest line round the corner . . . I want back on the racing line becuase I don't want to go round the hairpin two-abreast with a driver who may cut across to the apex and take me out because he's not let me back in and doesn't think I'm going to continue into the corner. It's not about getting the "racing line"; it's about going round the corner safely, one car at a time. I completely agree that it's the overtaking driver's responsibility to either get past in good time or to slow down and let the car being overtaken back in.

Someone mentioned Teeside above . . . let's get another session arranged there! That was a fantastic track for a newbie - I absolutely loved that!

D

[Mandy]

I have done quite a number of track days over the past 6 years, although only 2 in the last 2 years and I have to be honest and agree with Mac and Shug - driving standards on track now are better than they were before, however there are alot of new folk and thats something the regulars shouldn't forget.

I am fortunate enough to be confident to force myself back onto the racing line at the right time (with the use of my indicators), however I have to say that heading towards Duffus it was difficult to get back in at times unless you were being forceful! - can't honestly pin it to one particular person tho - never really bugged me enough to take note of the reggy plate and have that quiet word.

It was also very difficult to pass a faster car on the straight despite them moving over as they wouldn't lift off! I only have 120 BHP now that the car is back to standard - was ok when I had the power to pass but not now.

I think the words I said to Jinty on Friday was along the lines of use yor mirrors, indicate when moving on or off line, don't worry if you hold up a faster car for lap it wont kill them to wait.

Not saying I am the fantastic at driving KH by any means but if any of the ladies would like me to go out with them for support or would like to come out with me the next time I am on track just let me know. Sometimes its more comfortable when the testorerone isn't pumping through the veins.

Also, I use my track plate on the rear EVERY time I am on track - definately a worthwhile purchase.

Mandy x

[DJ]

I am also in the same camp as Dezzy, VXJon and LazyDonkey in having only done about 4 or 5 trackdays now and I tend to agree with almost all of their posts.
Like others have mentioned I use my indicators and tend to put them on just before the Chicane, Clarks and the hairpin and probably still move out of the way almost too early.

From my track noob point of view (with maybe 5 trackdays over 3 years) i tend to concur with many of the posts here - but i think it's more to do with how well we know each other and how we desparately don't want to get in the way and spoil things for the faster girls and boys....
Good debate though - and I reallhy think it's more to do with our desire to get on with everyone and not because people are worried about driving standards.

Once you do get to know who people are it does become easier. Kenny - you posted saying you may drive a bit close at times. The way I see it now though is you can be right on my tail by the time I am entering the chicance but I have no problem with that in that I know it is you, I've had a pax with you, know you are quick but I know you are not aggressive or impatient and will happily get by me when I move over on the short straight. When a car arrived on my tail in the twisties the first couple of times out I was envisaging the guy not being happy and shouting "'get a f****g move on". Now after meeting a few of the faster guys and done a couple of trackdays I know this is not the case.

The key thing is the string of fast cars though and no matter what is said it is difficult to force yourself back in amongst the middle of these as the corner approaches and I think many of the faster guys do seek the opportunity to get past either for their own sake or to keep in a fast group. Like others, I've been hung out at Clarks and the hairpin too a couple of times.

Think there is probably a bit for both newbie trackday people and the experienced trackers to learn from this thread.

[tut]

I really feel rather uncomfortable when we have owners such as Morven and Karen hesitating about going out on track because they would feel intimidated by faster drivers.

In fact ALL the cars out there would be faster, but they should feel twice as safe because we all know, or should do, that they are on for their first time, or close to, and will act accordingly. They will always be well over to the right, and should feel that they can concentrate on their driving without looking in their mirrors every second, and feel that they can move over to the left and on line when they are ready to and not worry about giving way. There is nothing we can do about the speed differential, but as long as there is space left between, and no cutting in, they will get used to that.

I also think that this would be the case on one of our organised days which is almost all Elise/Caterham family, where most of us know each other, and have been on track together.

This is a different case than in Dezzy's first post which is dealing with more experienced drivers of similar powered cars, but but different levels of ability/track experience.

tut

[meatball]

Karen/Little Morvy.......ask Jinty/Heds if they will go to KH again?
If they say no.....be nervous.
If they say yes....book on asap!

my 2p

[ExigeKen]

I really feel rather uncomfortable when we have owners such as Morven and Karen hesitating about going out on track because they would feel intimidated by faster drivers.

In fact ALL the cars out there would be faster, but they should feel twice as safe because we all know, or should do, that they are on for their first time, or close to, and will act accordingly. They will always be well over to the right, and should feel that they can concentrate on their driving without looking in their mirrors every second, and feel that they can move over to the left and on line when they are ready to and not worry about giving way. There is nothing we can do about the speed differential, but as long as there is space left between, and no cutting in, they will get used to that.

I also think that this would be the case on one of our organised days which is almost all Elise/Caterham family, where most of us know each other, and have been on track together.

This is a different case than in Dezzy's first post which is dealing with more experienced drivers of similar powered cars, but but different levels of ability/track experience.

tut

I have only been on track three times and have to say that Tut is correct the SE crowd do look out for each other on track - Morven & Karen give it a go it is a great experience and there are loads of old hands who will take you out as a pax so that you can build your confidence up

[dezzy]

Karen/Little Morvy.......ask Jinty/Heds if they will go to KH again?
If they say no.....be nervous.
If they say yes....book on asap!

my 2p

I know I can speak for Heds . . . as she's going to have a shot of my car again at the SIDC day!

Also, Karen/Morvy, Kames is a great place for your first track experience. Are you signed up for the day on the 21st?

D

[campbell]

I'm not at all agianst the L plate, or black cross on yellow background sticker idea - but what do we thing it will acheive? As I read matters (on the forum and on track) people are given a wide berth unless the driver behind knows the driver in front - e.g. tut & scotty (anyone remember Teeside?) or Phil & JJ as I saw on Friday. Is it so we'll give them an extra wide berth?

If I'm honest, I'd prefer a sticker on the front of the cars of the non-novices so that those we're trying to pass know that although we're (stop laughing at the back..) driving crappy S1s, we are faster than their 111R etc. People do have a habit of judging their ability by the power on the spec sheet sometimes (scoobie drivers too!)

Just a view from a different perspective - not just from me driving, but from paxing in other people's cars too

Yep certainly a useful perspective Greg but I am going to put the onus back on the experienced people to help the novices out. The black cross on yellow as per newbies for a race series could easily be the way to go. Totally recognisable, probably easy to get hold off, and simple and straightforward to reference in a driver briefing.

The last thing a novice needs is to be leering in their mirror as they approach / pass a braking point, the distraction is a real risk for an accident. OTOH, an experienced (or at least, non-novice) track day hack coming up on the back of a known novice already has their eyes pointing in the right direction, and a better chance of taking avoiding action if issues arise.

As has been said already, passing is supposedly by cooperation with the slower car. This maintains that principle.

I think we need to realise that once upon a time a lot of the SE bunch were novices together. That has definitely now changed, and most trackdays they're on will be filled with people with at least some experience. The novices are now badly outnumbered by people who may almost be in autopilot (I mean that in the nicest way) or doing "advanced techniques" (!). This has given rise to sessioned track events at other circuits, IIRC, where levels of ability are graded etc. I don't think I'd like to see this at KH because you absolutely learn more from being behind a better driver than from mixing it with others who are as clueless as you [I mean "you" in the sense of all of us, btw - that is not a dig, I have no idea what Greg's track driving is like!!]

There may be a demand for an SE novices tracknight...noting what Karen and Morvy have to say...or perhaps for a concession on a regular night that, say, the 2nd half hour is for novices only, to give them a bit of space after the old hands have had a good thrash first!

Even an "extended warmup" for novices only for say 10 mins would do the trick.

Maybe there is a poll brewing, eg, "If space was made on a regular tracknight for you to have a go along with other novices ONLY, would you be more inclined to try it out? Yes / No"

All great stuff folks - getting the most out of our cars and ourselves on track is really valuable for translating into good discipline and skills on the road, IMHO, so I hope we progress somewhere with this

[campbell]

I know I can speak for Heds . . . as she's going to have a shot of my car again at the SIDC day!

Also, Karen/Morvy, Kames is a great place for your first track experience. Are you signed up for the day on the 21st?

D

Get a chat with John Stewart well in advance of the SIDC day, ask him to review this thread if he hasn't already, and see if he can get the briefing to focus in on novice stuff (if enough SE'ers and novices are signed up). At the very least, reinforcing the "please lift when you move over to let a lesser powered but better cornering car to pass safely" point.

SIDC also used to be able to get a KH instructor on hand for free, who would do a few laps with anyone (or drive you in your own car if you want!) and this is the absolute best thing any novice can do. They are handed a set of core principles to follow, no bad habits handed down etc, and before long they are seeking out the instructor again for the advanced tuition!

If this can't be laid on any more, then there is probably scope for some of the experienced, level-headed drivers to line up to pax / drive with novices initially. Brings me back to my "10 min extended warmup for novices only" idea. I can't claim to be an expert, but I paxed with nxy on his first few laps (arrived after the warmup so were straight into the mix!) and borrowed his mirror to watch for traffic while talking him through lines, basic braking points, general principles etc. After a couple of sessions on his own he was getting quicker but some traits were emerging when I next went out with him, so we had a chat back in the pits (the Still Game crew saw me doing the hand signals much to their amusement). Then I suggested he pax with someone experienced...at which point I was thrown the keys to a very fast car and told to go show him myself

Anyways, I did, he was soon mixing it, and is bursting to get back out next time. As Robin says, the learning curve to get up to general pace of the traffic is steep but short and you will wish you had started it all earlier

[tut]

Campbell

John still lays on an instructor for free. I also did for tuttowers.

tut

[bertieduff]

There may be a demand for an SE novices tracknight...noting what Karen and Morvy have to say...or perhaps for a concession on a regular night that, say, the 2nd half hour is for novices only, to give them a bit of space after the old hands have had a good thrash first!

Even an "extended warmup" for novices only for say 10 mins would do the trick.

As another noob I'd certainly feel happier with that, but feel it wouldn't be fair to ask the older hands to give up, say, a half hour of a relatively short session...

Can totally see the point of mixing with better drivers in terms of learning more, but a bit more space would be good, even for a short period, allowing more time to concentrate on what's ahead rather than be watching your mirrors so much initially.

[Jinty]

Karen/Little Morvy.......ask Jinty/Heds if they will go to KH again?
If they say no.....be nervous.
If they say yes....book on asap!

my 2p

I'll be back out on track again ! I wasn't intimidated by the faster cars at all - just struggled at time to get back into the racing line but I know that was my fault. As I said before I didn't know whether to pull back into the racing line and found it hard because I had reduced the speed I was travelling at (again my fault).

I pulled over to the right on the straights to let everyone by as I felt I would be holding them up and I know myself I wasn't driving through the twisties as quick as I possibly could. Friday and Sunday I felt were not the time for me to be pushing myself driving the car as I my main aim was to have fun and stay on the black stuff. Not sure if I would have been back out on track if it was my fault that I ended the track session because I ended up in the gravel.

Most of you guys knew it was my first time on track at Knockhill and were really nice to be prior me going and track - Mandy took me out with her for a few pax laps which was great.

I had a great time over the weekend and would recommed getting on track to everyone.

Jinty

[ExigeKen]

Karen/Little Morvy.......ask Jinty/Heds if they will go to KH again?
If they say no.....be nervous.
If they say yes....book on asap!

my 2p

I'll be back out on track again ! I wasn't intimidated by the faster cars at all - just struggled at time to get back into the racing line but I know that was my fault. As I said before I didn't know whether to pull back into the racing line and found it hard because I had reduced the speed I was travelling at (again my fault).

I pulled over to the right on the straights to let everyone by as I felt I would be holding them up and I know myself I wasn't driving through the twisties as quick as I possibly could. Friday and Sunday I felt were not the time for me to be pushing myself driving the car as I my main aim was to have fun and stay on the black stuff. Not sure if I would have been back out on track if it was my fault that I ended the track session because I ended up in the gravel.

Most of you guys knew it was my first time on track at Knockhill and were really nice to be prior me going and track - Mandy took me out with her for a few pax laps which was great.

I had a great time over the weekend and would recommed getting on track to everyone.

Jinty

Thats the spirit Jinty

[mac]

I think the use of track plates could come in quite handy. It means you can tell who's driving from a further distance back and then you can work out how close you want to get.

On Friday I was coming through Duffus with someone I know in persuit (maybe Ed? can't remember) we were going at a fair lick when we came across as newer car - it took me a while to work out the reg plate and when I did I adjusted my braking distances etc so that I didn't spook the driver in front - I also signaled to the car behind to cool it until we had both passed the car.

Had the car been wearing a track plate I could have told much further back and given additional breathing space rather than coming up close and then having to back off.

I always try and work to a worst case scenario - you putting in a hot lap, there's a azure blue S1 in front, you assume it's Tut or Craig, you think "he he - fun time" only to find it spinning three feet in front of you before the entry to the corner, as the cars rotating you realise it's Sanjoy driving and that you should have left a safe distance (say 1/4 mile) between you and the car


Mac

[Lazydonkey]

Track plates ordered this morning

......I'm assuming you'll be able to work out the missing vowel (ordered LazyDnkey!) as you approach at max tuts