The Pope

[pete]

[quote="BigD
It seem the Athiests are out to try and convert me to atheism. It seems to me that atheism is highly intolerant of others beliefs. Why would that be?

Why try and push atheist views on other, NOBODY is preaching or pushing their "other" religeons or beliefs on here just the atheists getting all uppety that they're right

Live and let live!

Each to their own, we're all equal human beings at the end of the day, what paople take comfort in is their own business!

Mark (hoping not to have offeded anyone as no offence intended!) [/quote]

I'm not trying to convert anyone.

What people take comfort in isn't their own business when it impinges on others. And the thread starts with someone very publicly preaching inequality.

That was my point.

I'm not "pushing atheist views" but I'll cheerfully tell you what I think and I will be genuinely fascinated to debate them with you. I'm with graeme - I want to know what others think and why.


Pete

[Shug]

Thought this theological video would add to the debate.

(audio NSFW at the start)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlZpSd2lRJQ

Interesting and serious debate that this is, I think it's Friday and I've been too serious for most of the week

[graeme]

Graeme, perhaps I misquoted you - I thought you had said "the church does no good, only people do good". I'm assuming you disagree with the statement that "the church does no evil, only people do evil". If not, I apologise for getting it wrong again. But assuming you do this helps to illustrate two points. Firstly, you're not neutral in this discussion, and as such it's not surprising that people on the other side of the discussion are a little reluctant to discuss their ideas, motivations, beliefs with you. If you were interested in this subject in an academic sense, you would avoid making it clear what you believe. Secondly, you must have a different view of logic from me. To say that "the church does no good, only people do" to me means the church is an abstract concept; doing good in any meaningful way is an action that requires the selfless application of resources, generally by people (sometimes animals, never inanimate objects or abstract concepts). This same applies to any other conjunction of "the church" and "people", e.g. "The church does no evil, only people do" or more mundanely, "The church doesn't make a cup of tea; only people do". Of course if you have faith you are able to believe "the church does good" and then you could probably also believe "the church does evil", though you're unlikely to do so.

Ahh, ok. I getcha. Yes, that would be correct. I should probably have said, "the goodness is in the people, not the doctrine". It doesn't then follow that the doctrine cannot be responsible for making good people do bad things.

I love your point that "If you were interested in this subject in an academic sense, you would avoid making it clear what you believe." I can and do argue both sides, but yes I guess I'm guilty of taking the debating approach where you state your position from the start. I'll try not to. That's great (and rather obvious now you mention it) advice. Thanks.

I don't mean to belittle your search for knowledge and understanding here, I justthink that you're onto a loser Also, I apologise for the rudeness of my contributions to this topic - I should have couched my opinions in a less arrogant way (or followed my own advice and not got involved in the first place ).

I quite probably am onto a loser ultimately in that I'm very unlikely to come up with any huge physical or theological breakthrough that suddenly explains life the universe and everything (yes, I know, 42). But I haven't stopped learning new things yet, or uncovering new questions anyway... not sure if that's the same thing. Anyway, must keep going... I only need two more pub argument tokens to send away for my Intellectual Badge of Honour!

Cheers,
Graeme

[BigD]

You have still not answered my original query though which was to try and get what you were saying in your original post. Are you saying that all believers in God (not extremists) should not hold a position of authority and have the ability at any point to kill themselves and innocent people because of a whisper in their ear. I would call them mental patients not religious.

You see that's what i don't understand. I do not want you to justify your faith, faith is faith. I get that.
But I don't understand what people actually believe, I mean the bible seems pretty clear to me - God sometimes speaks to folk.
Doesn't he? Isn't that what people who go to Church think?
It's what I thought when I went.
When Saul saw a blinding light and then Jesus spoke to him that's not a metaphor is it?

Surely Christians believe that actually happened?

So if they do believe this, do they not also believe that God may speak to them directly too?

This'll be my last point too as it relates to my original question which I see you have still not answered but responded with a question.

I will answer directly though; I would say yes people who believe in God also believe that he may speak to them. I don't know anyone who has had a whisper in the ear, though, it tends to be more word from the Bible. Or interpretation if you will.

If someone had words whispered to them in their ear from God telling them to do bad then how do they know it is God if he has never spoken to them before. I don't think it happens to these select few every day and if it does then they are mental. So is it not in fact the Devil masquerading as God?! Surely God would not tell someone to do evil!

[graeme]

I think that the Christians who claim to hear the voice of God firsthand are an extreme minority and are as alien to most other Christians as they are to atheists. I know a guy who feels he really communicates with God, but he doesn't claim to hear a voice. For example he can't say whether God is a deep baritone or high-pitched castrato or speaks English or Hebrew... that's all taking the word voice a bit too literally. Sure, the Bible talks of the voice of God, but do we know that it was meant any more literally back then than now? The bible says God "spoke" to Moses at Sinai (which could mean silently), but the Torah says he spoke to all 3 million in the crowd. Mistranslation? Artistic license? Who knows...

As for, "Surely God would not tell someone to do evil!" BigD, lots of what God told his people to do in the Bible was, by today's standards, pure disgusting evil. Mass murder (poor Mass - why does he always get murdered? ), rape, torture... it's all in there, direct from the big man himself. Maybe he's changed his ways, or maybe our filters have changed, but you have to sift through a lot of evil to find the good in his words.

[David Bryce]

and in the beginning Man created God

(just my 2p worth )

[pete]

You have still not answered my original query though which was to try and get what you were saying in your original post. Are you saying that all believers in God (not extremists) should not hold a position of authority and have the ability at any point to kill themselves and innocent people because of a whisper in their ear. I would call them mental patients not religious.

You see that's what i don't understand. I do not want you to justify your faith, faith is faith. I get that.
But I don't understand what people actually believe, I mean the bible seems pretty clear to me - God sometimes speaks to folk.
Doesn't he? Isn't that what people who go to Church think?
It's what I thought when I went.
When Saul saw a blinding light and then Jesus spoke to him that's not a metaphor is it?

Surely Christians believe that actually happened?

So if they do believe this, do they not also believe that God may speak to them directly too?

This'll be my last point too as it relates to my original question which I see you have still not answered but responded with a question.

I will answer directly though; I would say yes people who believe in God also believe that he may speak to them. I don't know anyone who has had a whisper in the ear, though, it tends to be more word from the Bible. Or interpretation if you will.

If someone had words whispered to them in their ear from God telling them to do bad then how do they know it is God if he has never spoken to them before. I don't think it happens to these select few every day and if it does then they are mental. So is it not in fact the Devil masquerading as God?! Surely God would not tell someone to do evil!

In answer to your original post and subsequent question.

My wife is a Christian* so no, I don't really believe that those who claim an Abrahamic religion should be barred from reponsibility. It was rhetoric.

But then I don't believe that most who describe themselves as Christian really know what it means, I don't think many of them have read the bible (other than very selectively), nor would most of them agree with much of that which is written in the bible - were they to read it.

So if you are one of that majority :-
i)who doesn't believe God will literally speak to you;
ii) who doesn't see angels;
iii)who does believe that thinking "live and let live" and feeling "there is something more than science can explain" makes you a Christian;

then I have no objection to you having a job (Like I get to have a say in it!!!).
But I would really appreciate you withdrawing your tacit support from those in your flock who do not believe in equality or science but do believe in discrimination.

And if you are one of the minority who believes in the letter of the bible and hears God's voice then, without me judging whether it is God you are actually hearing, then I would rather you were kept away from positions of responsibility.

As for him not instructing people to do evil, God instructed Abraham to sacrifice his first born son as a proof of his faith didn't he?

Pete

*And since you ask Yes, she refuses to talk to me about religion.
(Hope that wasn't too garbled a response - these are taking ages to write.)

[DDtB]

[tut]

"The Bible", the greatest work of fiction ever written.

tut

[r055]

i want to know the source of your findings please

[renmure]

Just thought I would resurrect this today.


Err.... I will get my coat now.

[rossybee]

Naughty boy Jim

Luckily, I have a bargepole to hand which I can keep well clear of this thread...

[H8OAG]

I find this thread offensive as it is starting to threaten "Watch Lovers" as a potential long distance runner
I will side with Mac on the fact that there is little point in debating theology on an open forum(I feel for you Graeme as someone who has a high level of intellect ......but is doomed to failure on this particular topic )

My view is jaundiced having survived 10 years in Belfast throughout its most troubled times...... and have first hand experience of hypocrites on both sides

I also think the Trade Union member is far more frightening than any theological debate

Light touchpaper ......check

Yeehah

[PhilA]

Christianity (have i got that speeling wrong Robin?)

It's correct I believe ...

Cheers,
Robin

OOPS - Phil - I am really sorry, I meant to quote your post, but edited it by mistake; unfortunately nobody had quoted it, so there isn't a copy of it to recover from. It's been a long day

[Mr Momo]

This post has been blatantly created by post count junkies - please stop