Brexit.

[BiggestNizzy]

The EU isn't perfect but it does do stuff that benefits us all. I no longer have to dodge the jobbies when swimming off the Ayrshire coast. The money argument is a bit thin £350m x 52 is only £18bn. If we gave that to the chancellor tomorrow would he spend it on the NHS / Unicorns we have been promised ? Not likely he would probably just borrow a little less. And all those regeneration schemes that the EU run in the UK would go to the toilet. I know we tend to live in a middle class bubble on here but there are some really crappy places in the UK where years of industrial decline have left them in a sorry state, unfortunately local / devolved and national governments are too busy trying to be popular to spend money on development.
Immigration is the other one and we live in a country or racists like it or not that's where we live not everyone is as liberal and free thinking as people on here and leaving the EU will do nothing about it. We won't throw out anyone who is already here, for one we would get all those ex-pats and skin cancer can get expensive to treat. It will stop the Romanians and polish coming over but will do nothing about the non EU immigrants, hell we may get our own dead Syrian children washing up on the white cliffs.

[kenny]

Simon,

Your tone is very aggressive, in my opinion, and I don't understand why you are so hostile. Everyone on here is allowed to express their opinion, you included. If you disagree with somebody else of course you challenge it, but why be so shouty about it - do you think that approach persuades anyone to agree with you? More likely it shuts down the discussion because people don't like the aggression.

There is nothing aggressive whatsoever in the posts. just classic Robin, 'lets shut down arguments I don't like' bullying.

[rossybee]

Simon,

Your tone is very aggressive, in my opinion, and I don't understand why you are so hostile. Everyone on here is allowed to express their opinion, you included. If you disagree with somebody else of course you challenge it, but why be so shouty about it - do you think that approach persuades anyone to agree with you? More likely it shuts down the discussion because people don't like the aggression.

There is nothing aggressive whatsoever in the posts. just classic Robin, 'lets shut down arguments I don't like' bullying.

Yip. Simon is passionate about something so why shouldn't he voice this???

[robin]

Simon,

Your tone is very aggressive, in my opinion, and I don't understand why you are so hostile. Everyone on here is allowed to express their opinion, you included. If you disagree with somebody else of course you challenge it, but why be so shouty about it - do you think that approach persuades anyone to agree with you? More likely it shuts down the discussion because people don't like the aggression.

There is nothing aggressive whatsoever in the posts. just classic Robin, 'lets shut down arguments I don't like' bullying.

I engaged with all of the arguments also and encourage continued debate and hopefully without offending anyone. It is aggression that shuts down debate in my opinion. But you are entitled to your opinion that I am a bully much as it hurts me personally.

[robin]

At what point have I said people shouldn't voice their opinion? All I ask for is that it doesn't become aggressive in tone. Is that so bad?

[mckeann]

Simon,

Your tone is very aggressive, in my opinion, and I don't understand why you are so hostile. Everyone on here is allowed to express their opinion, you included. If you disagree with somebody else of course you challenge it, but why be so shouty about it - do you think that approach persuades anyone to agree with you? More likely it shuts down the discussion because people don't like the aggression.

There is nothing aggressive whatsoever in the posts. just classic Robin, 'lets shut down arguments I don't like' bullying.

Haha, funniest thing you've ever posted on SE Kenny

Firstly, Scuffers tone in posts does come across very shouty and argumentative. I've met him in real life and it's not like this at all, so not sure why his posting style is like that.

Secondly. You've met robin yeh? Bully????????? The friendliest most helpful man on SE!!!!! Geniuenly LOL'd when you said that as it couldn't be further from the truth in my experience.

Thirdly, robins not telling Simon he can't put his point across, he just asked him to do it in a less aggressive manner. He can say what he likes, just say it nicely. Hardly shutting down the argument.


Anyway, peace out brother, love and hugs,

[thinfourth]

The EU isn't perfect but it does do stuff that benefits us all. I no longer have to dodge the jobbies when swimming off the Ayrshire coast.

That argument along with many others hovers between bollocks and vaguely insulting


As your basic point is that we in the UK are a bit backwards and don't care about X. Without the EU then we would not of brought in any laws to deal with X. If we leave the EU we will immediately drop all laws dealing with X as we are all savages and only the EU can stop us


X in your case is jobbies in the clyde

X for other people can be air pollution, workers rights, women rights, equality, food safety, animal welfare etc and so on.


Do you really think that we are so uniquely backwards in the UK would would be perfectly happy with jobbies flowing around our coast?

I don't

The money argument is a bit thin £350m x 52 is only £18bn. If we gave that to the chancellor tomorrow would he spend it on the NHS / Unicorns we have been promised ? Not likely he would probably just borrow a little less. And all those regeneration schemes that the EU run in the UK would go to the toilet.

Agreed

The biggest downside to leaving the EU is we will still have those idiots incharge

I know we tend to live in a middle class bubble on here but there are some really crappy places in the UK where years of industrial decline have left them in a sorry state, unfortunately local / devolved and national governments are too busy trying to be popular to spend money on development.

Potentially leaving the EU could bring a new industrial revolution to the UK

Very unlikely though due to afore mentioned idiots

Immigration is the other one and we live in a country or racists like it or not that's where we live not everyone is as liberal and free thinking as people on here and leaving the EU will do nothing about it. We won't throw out anyone who is already here, for one we would get all those ex-pats and skin cancer can get expensive to treat. It will stop the Romanians and polish coming over but will do nothing about the non EU immigrants, hell we may get our own dead Syrian children washing up on the white cliffs.

Anyone who is voting leave to get rid of those nasty brown people is basically a bit thick


The immigration argument always tends to take the following path

nasty person = I think we have too many folk coming into the UK

Right on person = RACIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And here ends the debate


I have concerns over immigration but numbers don't bother me. i am more interested in quality.

The idea that it is easier for an indian restaurant to employ a Romanian curry chef then one from India is basically nuts. As most Romanians don't like curry.

Lets bring in those with skills we need. Not just the ones from the EU


As to immigrants coming in to steal out benefits.

That argument is complete balls

Most of those sat on their arse watching Jeremy Kyle while we pay for them are home grown useless idiots. To throw them out of the country which i would gladly do then we need a bit more then leaving the EU.

[Scuffers]

yes, it's only £18Bn in direct payments, however, the total cost is somewhat different.

5% VAT on fuel (have a guess how much that costs us all?)
EU lead green taxes in energy - it's all well and good going on about the nasty big energy companies, but their profits are miniscule compared to the green taxes and levies forced upon us. (read somewhere that Port Talbot's electric bill was over 3 times the total wage bill), this is what's causing the shutdown on manufacturing, specifically basic heavy industries.
then we get one-offs dumped on us all the time, the £1.75Bn that CMD said he would not pay (and of course did!, etc etc.
then more than half the £12Bn foreign aid budget goes to the EU.

Back to the bailouts, the UK spent billions propping up the republic of Ireland, and via the IMF the Eurozone bailouts (US are a member of the IMF yet did not cough up), so to suggest being out of the Eurozone protects us from this is also laughable.

Back to the political argument, trying to suggest it's the EU or a Tory government is pathetic, it's called democracy, the tories won the election, get over it - the big difference is that in <4 years time, we can again choose who is in westminster, you can argue that only ~24% (11.3M) of the 46.4M electorate (2015 election), but that's irrelevant (Same as the SNP winning Scottish seats with only 1.4M votes)

I have still yet to see and single VALID reason for staying in the EU.

[thinfourth]

I have still yet to see and single VALID reason for staying in the EU.

1 It gives us access to the EU sciency stuff
2 I think Airbus would sod off if we left the EU
3 It would give the markets a short term shock downwards

and the biggest reason to vote remain

It would be our hugely pro EU parliament who would be negotiating a leave deal

I have no doubt they would sign us up to open borders, following all EU regulations, worse trading terms, higher contributions and zero say in how it is run

Either deliberately out of malice or to win nice EU jobs or out of sheer incompetence

[pete]

The EU stopped wars by uniting the economies of the major powers in such a way that they could no longer go to war. Yes there have been wars on the outskirts of the EU but not within it.

The EU is by far our largest trading partner, how do you work out that we are the biggest customer market? In what sense?

OK, in very basic terms, prove it.

Sorry genuinely don't know what you mean there. you want me to prove that none of the EU powers have ever been to war with each other since the EU was created?

Well they haven't, do you think there have?

What has prevented war since 1945 was initially the nuclear standoff (cold war) and more recently, Democracy following the breakup of the soviet union and fall of the Berlin wall, all backup up by the ever presence of NATO.

Yes but that's outwith the EU (good Scottish word there, I've been here too long) I meant inside the EU, which is why I wrote "there have been wars on the outskirts of the EU but not within it" I should perhaps have just said "outside the EU".

I know there have been wars. But not within the EU.

Bosnia was exacerbated by the EU unilaterally recognising Bosnia and Herzegovina's, but not willing to actually commit to support this position, this then spiraled out of control with various 'EU' peacekeeping forces failing miserably to have any real direction and authority until NATO stepped in.

The current crisis in Yugoslavia is much the same, EU meddling in a country's democracy, offering the world but failing miserably to back up said promises, and then look all surprised when Russia respond.

This is outside the EU and I just don't agree with your interpretation of events, and nor does Wikipedia which is as far as I got in researching it. But it doesn't matter, it's just smoke and not a reason to vote for Brexit.

As for the UK's position in the EU, we are in monetary terms the biggest customer market within the EU, by far.

OK I did find the reference for this, albeit on a UKIP website and you've misquoted a bit. We are in the EU and the statistics don't show we are the biggest market in the EU but the biggest market outside the Eurozone, ie excluding all the Eurozone members.

Interesting point nonetheless.

[woody]

I have still yet to see and single VALID reason for staying in the EU.

And I've still yet to see and single VALID reason for LEAVING the EU.

(The caps makes it sooo much more convincing. It really does)

[pete]

I have still yet to see and single VALID reason for staying in the EU.

1 It gives us access to the EU sciency stuff
2 I think Airbus would sod off if we left the EU
3 It would give the markets a short term shock downwards

and the biggest reason to vote remain

It would be our hugely pro EU parliament who would be negotiating a leave deal

I have no doubt they would sign us up to open borders, following all EU regulations, worse trading terms, higher contributions and zero say in how it is run

Either deliberately out of malice or to win nice EU jobs or out of sheer incompetence

I mean don't underestimate the level of incompetence on either side but those are all good points, sorry VALID points.

(Try and get on Question Time with this

"The EU's sh*t and we should leave but our politicians are all idiots and wil f.uck it up. Vote stay.")

[thinfourth]

I mean don't underestimate the level of incompetence on either side but those are all good points, sorry VALID points.

(Try and get on Question Time with this

"The EU's sh*t and we should leave but our politicians are all idiots and wil f.uck it up. Vote stay.")

Which is remarkably similar to my reasons to voting to stay in the UK

Just i felt our home grown lot were loony left idiots not just plain idiots

[thinfourth]

I have still yet to see and single VALID reason for staying in the EU.

And I've still yet to see and single VALID reason for LEAVING the EU.

(The caps makes it sooo much more convincing. It really does)

If you see no valid reason behind a leave vote then you ain't looking hard enough

I'll give you one

We can bring in an immigration system where we can select people on skills and benefit to the UK

Not just their country of origin

[woody]

I have still yet to see and single VALID reason for staying in the EU.

And I've still yet to see and single VALID reason for LEAVING the EU.

(The caps makes it sooo much more convincing. It really does)

If you see no valid reason behind a leave vote then you ain't looking hard enough

I'll give you one

We can bring in an immigration system where we can select people on skills and benefit to the UK

Not just their country of origin[/quote


The validity aspect is a personal thing of course.