Scottish Elises

I have no intention of starting an argument here, but would just like people's opinions on this topic following experiences over the weekend . . .

I'm definitely not the fastest driver out on track and so I try my very best to move over when safe to do so and let the fast guys by. I did this several times on Friday night and Sunday morning last week for Tut's track sessions and I always try to put my indicator on before the corner so that the person behind knows I'm going to let them by on the straight. When I do this, my intention is to let the one or two fast guys behind me by.

However, I found on several occassions over the weekend that if there were a few "medium paced" drivers following behind the fast guys, they would also take this as an invitation to pass me. That is by no means what I was doing. I was letting the fast guys by - not the guys that are going at the same pace as me. However, it's hard to convey that, so fair enough if they took the opportunity to get by.

The thing that annoys me, and that I think is simply dangerous, is that on at least two occassions at the weekend, someone at the end of this queue of cars left it far too late to get by me and left me completely off line, having to slam the brakes on and hardly able to get round the corner at the end of the straight. This was even though I had my left indicator on, clearly showing that I needed back across. This left me in a very scary and dangerous positions because they did not leave me time to get back on the racing line.

I know it's not just me that this has happened to. It happened to Heather when she was driving my car on Friday night and I also discussed it with Jinty. As beginners to this track thing, it's the thing that is most daunting. We all make a huge effort to get out of the way and let fast guys by, but the fast guys also need to realise that we need back across to the line for the corner.

At the end of the day, the person who is last in the line of fast cars just needs to wait til after the corner (usually the hairpin) and can get by on the next straight. I think it's just simple impatience that leads to this.

As I said, don't want to start an argument . . . just keen to know if it's just me that has observed this or if other beginners (and experienced guys) have witnessed this too. It's definitely not the norm, but a few SE'rs did do this over the weekend. Whether it was deliberate or not, I don't know. So I'm keen to hear what people think.

Cheers,
D

You're absolutely correct and it's shameful that people pass in this fashion.

You should not pass someone IF you cannot complete the pass and allow the passed car to return on line before the corner - for the sake of argument, the first "BRAKE" board or distance marker.

That said, the person letting people pass should begin to drift left long before the corner is coming up; if you indicate left and actually start to move left you can start to shut the door on the other cars - they'll soon get the hint and back off!

You need to take control and worry less about upsetting people - and they need to chill if they don't like it, after all it's a social event, not a race

Remember that overtaking is by consent - if the car in front doesn't give consent, that's tough for the car behind - you have no right to force an overtake. A simple rule of thumb would be no more than three cars passing on the main straight, one on each of the back straights. But I much prefer use of common sense to blind application of rules ...

Cheers,
Robin

I have been out with a few guys on track who have had to come to a hault because passing traffic would not let them rejoin the main flow. As Dezzy says, this is dangerous.

The difficulty comes about when you back off to let one or two by, then found that having backed off, there is an even greater speed differential, preventing you from re-joining. I think the key, is to back off, gently, allow one or two to pass, then as Robin says, assert youself that you are coming back on line. It's not as if you are asking folk to wait for several laps to get passed, just a few corners!

It works both ways; some grumble that others don't let them past, while others grumble about being bullied. There is a happy balance of good track manners to be achieved. IMHO

I totally agree with all those sentiments.

There were several regular SE guys who took the time to flash me back across to the left when there was a big hold up which was great

It's a close call to make - many times I've hung back to let someone back out as they aren't making their intentions clear (at the hairpin, almost all the time) and they dither and trundle round the inside of the corner - hanging a pile of cars behind me too. I don't have to mention that this has caused a wee (fcuking big) collision between a couple of members some time ago, so more dangerous as they are on line and at full pace...

Having said that, I think your indicator being on should be a good 'indicator' of intention. Although, to play devil's advocate, if you are in a queue going past up to braking for the hairpin , then there is an argument that you can miss this because of concentrating on the guy in front's brake lights and the fact that you are going at some lick - your eyes flicking between cars could miss the blinks of the indicator at that speed. Still, I'd rather it was on than not.

No easy answer to this, although I think you very much have the right idea in idicating back in to the line. Busy trackdays are busy trackdays and there might be situations where this happens. Key point I think is that you don't stop on track or slow to a crawl, enter the corner - it's the passer's responsibility at this stage and nobody is going to turn into you, laws of physics dictate that if they go in too hot expecting you to yeild, they go to the outside and run out of road. Shame... If they have an accident, it'll be with the tyres/gravel and it won't be your fault.

If you're already going slow, to let people pass, then what's the urgent need to be back on the racing line before every corner though? It's not especially dangerous as you can go round the corner on the inside with no problems if you run out of time to get back on line - you really have to be up to full speed to need the racing line to make the corner & if you're off-line letting people pass, there's no way you should be at full speed (that just makes the pass longer and more dangerous)...

Again, no arguments needed, but you may be focusing too much on getting back on the line without having thought it through - when I'm passed in that situation I use it as an excuse to try a different exit strategy for the corner (as if, in a race, I'd just passed someone on the brakes, I'd have to try and get back to speed the best I could, from off-line) Everything's an opportunity for learning

Dominic wrote:I have been out with a few guys on track who have had to come to a hault because passing traffic would not let them rejoin the main flow. As Dezzy says, this is dangerous.

Yup - stopping is dangerous and daft - there's no need to! Take the corner, it's not gonna throw you off because you're on the wrong side and if someone expects you to be letting them past the only place they are going is the gravel - unless you are crawling or nearly stopped I honestly would have thought the marshals would black flag anyone they saw stopping on track and explain it's not necessary and very dangerous.

Generally I make cutt off points on any track, usually half way down any given passing place. At this point my indicator goes back on regardless of how much Ill hold up the faster cars and I will start to retake the proper line. When I first started I wouldnt want to upset people by holding them up and would find myself in difficult situations, you seen realise you have to be assertive, take control and am now much safer for it. One big issue on track is becoming lazy after too many laps, not checking your mirrors constantly and paying attention to the order of cars behind, watching this you can plan where in the order of cars you can feed in. Craig.
PS Very good thread, something we should all be paying attention too.

I agree with Robin on this one. Trackdays arent competitive, so theres nothing to be won or lost in forcing an overtake.

I would echo shug's comments that if you move over to let cars passed, you should be easing off the throttle. Otherwise you still find yourself side by side as you approach the corner. This happened to me a few times on Monday night in Simon's caterham. There were some very fast cars who moved over, and i sat side by side with, until i outbraked them at the hairpin (i was on the left obviously). They should have lifted off before then, although no harm done, but it could spook out a newbie.


Also, Ken, quite right, i always try to give a wee flash to the guy who is offline, to let them back in.

For KH, i would say that the bridge on the main straight, and the bump before the hairpin are where you should be back on line, or certainly heading for it. Obviously as you get more confident (both with yourself, and the people your on track with) then you can alter these as circumstances allow.

Good shout Dezzy,

This has happened to me twice, and once was caught on Rog's (The Admiral's) video. As I saw it, he was coming from a long long way back at the straight and I was virtually at the brow of duffus by the time he actually passed. On the video, you can hear him say, "don't you pull out on me Mr Lotus..." As I recall it, I'd been over on the right hand side for some time but he never had the pace (or something) until very late on. Duffus isn't a corner I like being on the wrong side of, having to jump on the brakes...

Yup a tricky one - and harder to judge when a track nebie or relative newbie.

I think as the Ape says, its more about easing off the throttle than coming right of it, as they say in the briefings, " a slight lift". This helps you keep pace and manage the cars coming by you more effectively. If you want to only let one or two by, personally I'd only move enough of line for a gap big enough for them to get by safely, rather than hugging the other side of the track. (not saying you are, but hope that expalination makes sense)

You want to let a few by, get back on your line, hit your braking point and continue, so allow others to pass in a manner that allows you to keep doing this.

Its very dangerous for cars to get caught on the right, way off pace, and I'm sure everyone would rather be held up for another 30 seconds, than have you or anyone else for that matter, put themselves in harms way.

If you are concerned about getting caught out like this, also put your indicator on for moving left, to signal to the other drivers that you are about to rejoin the flow. You should find, especially with SE-ers, that they will respond very positively to this and allow you back in.

To your credit, this is a sign of your consideration and awareness of the traffic around you, but like me on my first track outings, i was too considerate for fear of being labelled a mobile chicane or annoying anyone.

I recall breaking a few times on Friday night way earlier than usual for the hairpin to let people back in, they then returned the favour on the straight

Having said that, i think Friday is not indicative of the amount of traffic that is normally on circuit. (and i hope i wasn't one of the one trying to skip by )

Andy G wrote: (and i hope i wasn't one of the one trying to skip by )

You would have been the one leading them.

Dezzy

I know its tricky first but you will get used to it in time.

Good thread Dezzy.

I was on both sides this weekend-
1. I almost had to stop as I couldn't get back to the right after allowing a car past....the rest followed........I just indicated and rejoined when clear?????
2. I was being help up by cars that were faster/same as mine in a straight line but a lot slower through the twisty bits......on that occasion I let tut through and then used him to get past the other car.

I'm not sure what I should have done when getting held up........slow down and give myself a clear run or as I was the only one behind tut, was that acceptable?

With reference to 1. after that I gently eased off and allowed 2 cars through, back on the loud pedal, indicated left and moved to the track centre.......

discuss.....I'm still trying to learn!

mckeann wrote:I would echo shug's comments that if you move over to let cars passed, you should be easing off the throttle. Otherwise you still find yourself side by side as you approach the corner. This happened to me a few times on Monday night in Simon's caterham. There were some very fast cars who moved over, and i sat side by side with, until i outbraked them at the hairpin (i was on the left obviously). They should have lifted off before then, although no harm done, but it could spook out a newbie.

Nail >> Head.

Easiest and quickest way of letting someone by, a small lift is all that's required.

What corners were you experiencing this at?
If it was approaching the hairpin or Duffus then you might be creating a problem for yourself by not lifting off soon enough or lifting off too much, allowing the next group to catch up. When the speed differential is greater it's harder to naturally slot back in. I wouldn't worry about it too much, it's something most of us will have experienced and it gets a lot easier to anticipate with a few trackdays under your belt.

If it was approaching Clarks then it is not that surprising as the straight is short leaving little time for cars to pass. Even quick drivers will get this from time to time, cool down laps usually where you can be caught out by a sudden gaggle of cars coming up behind.

kenny wrote: Nail >> Head.

Easiest and quickest way of letting someone by, a small lift is all that's required.

.

Well good advice, Kenny spends most of his track days letting people past, don't you big lad! Oh and no, clearly i have nothing constructive to add to this post, it's all been said!

I think that we are almost all in agreement on this, in that no matter what the car in front of you does, you should be anticipating it, and it is upto you to drive safely. You do not have a right to overtake even if the driver in front is a complete dickhead, or just a newbie and not sure of what he is doing.

I am spoilt as I have one of the faster cars on track, everybody knows the reg, and sometimes the courtesy shown is almost embarassing. However I always hold back and let the car in front come back on line for the Hairpin to take the corner. I can then pass comfortably on the straight, then the same routine for Duffus.

On the other hand I can appreciate what it is like when my car is driven at part speed, as I doubt if any one else has had their teenage kids drive their Elise for the first time ever, on a track day, never mind a LHD one. Keeping them over to the right then slotting them back in line when three cars were on a mission was a bit nerve testing, and I can see why Dezzy started the thread.

tut