S2 vs S2 111s

[cjm]

How big is the difference in perfromance between a standard S2 and the 111s? Really talking feel rather than just basic 0-60 figures, does the 111s have much better pull at say 60, 70, 80mph?
I have been saving for an Elise for a while and pretty much have enough for an early s2 but worried it might feel a bit slow!? I'm not really into modifing a standard car for more power as i know i won't, will always find other things to do with the money first!
So should I hold of a bit longer and save for a 111s or start looking at basic S2's, thoughts??

Colin

p.s. the car will be used every day and I normally keep cars for about 3 years.

[campbell]

When you say "will feel a bit slow", what are you comparing it against?

What cars have you owned to date?

What did you like / dislike about the driving characteristics of each?

I have only limited experience of a 111S and in fact it was an S1, but my lasting impression was it was no quicker than a standard Elise until you revved the knackers off it. At which point, if you were willing / able to do so, you would eke out a car length or two between corners on the Queen's highway, and probably quite a few more on the way up the pit straight at KH.

My S1 has had slightly more power than a 111S for 18 months or so now, thanks to a quality cylinder head, and I absolutely love it. It now has more than enough (for me). I still have a std gearbox though. An S1 111S comes with the CR box which helps get more out of the revvy engine too. The S2 111S has a funny combo of 2 or 3 short gears then 4th and 5th are quite long, I believe.

Ali Crozier would be your man for the full rundown though, I think!

[bertieduff]

As Campbell said, depends where you're coming from. I've had a bog standard 120bhp K-series S2 for a couple of years, and it can still drive far faster than I can. Occassionally I do daydream that more power would be a good thing, but once you've driven it for a while you really begin to appreciate what people mean about power not really being the point.

[mac]

S2 - less power but closer gearing

S2 111s - more power but wider gearing (it's not a simple as that but we'll not go there at present)


So the net result for acceleration etc is pretty much evened out by the differences in the box. If your looking to do a bit more in the way of motorway driving than B road thrashing then I would go for the 111s.



Mac

[pete]

TBH you'll like whichever you choose.

I've had a S1 111s and now have an S2 111s. The S1 was the better driver's car, mainly thanks to the close ratio box. The S2 is much better nailed together, doesn't leak and is more reliable. Standard cars feel faster at first (ore torque low down) but having had them as loaners I quickly miss the rev hungry nature of the VVC.

There's not much in it though, just don't think about it too much and concentrate on condition (or else you'll turn into, well you know who ).

135Rs are probably the car of choice as they depreciate less, that's what I'd get for a daily driver but you can't make a "wrong" decision. The slightly higher gearing of the 111s is just not a selling point they are all noisy.

Ours commutes, it does track days (more in theory than practice), it takes Millie to nursery, it goes to the shops. It does 35mpg, it only depreciates when I drive it (every day).

Just buy one.

[Neil72]

The 111S is usefully quicker. 36bhp is not insignificant and the 0-60, 0-100, in gear times etc all prove this to be the case.

Also, the torque curve of the 111S is very similar to the std 120bhp car (actually slightly better IIRC) so it actually doesn't lose out on anything at low revs as has been suggested. I agree that it does feel like the 111S loses out on a bit low down torque but I think that's as a result of the added oomph up the rev range where the standard car tails off.

Fuel consumption is better on the 111S and the spec is likely to be better too (standard hard top, aircon etc). Biggest downside I would say is the uninspiring engine noise.....the 111S sounds like a bag of hammers.

But I have to agree with Pete - you'll love both. I would shop with an open mind and just buy the best car to come along at the best price, whether it be a Sports Tourer, 135R or 111S or whatever.

If you ever want a run in a 111S to see what it's like feel free to drop me a PM.

[a4drk]

The 111S gets to 100mph, approx 3.5 secs quicker than the 120bhp sports tourer...

(17.5 secs & 14 secs) (approx)

whereas 0 to 60 times is some thing like 5.7 & 5.4secs

[MacK]

On a run a while back I was asked if my standard S2 was just a 150 bhp 111S.


So I suppose it depends on who is driving it where.


But as others have said it depends what you are comparing it to.

[ryallm]

I used to have an S2 135 which a drove back to back against both a standard S2 and a 111s. I reckon it is the best of the factory K series drivetrains - more mid and top end pull that the 120bhp car which runs out of puff above 5000rpm, and unlike the 111s it has the close ratio box, so it feels just as quick as the 111S, even though the latter has more power. If I was buying a K series S2 I would look long and hard for a good 135R - with the sports suspension and sticky tyres it is a great all round package. But rest assured you'll have a hoot whichever one you choose

Mark

[cjm]

Does anyone have in gear times for the S2, 135 and 111s?

Are the 135 engine mods not like these on the S1, really put out more like 140-145bhp but saying that would have made the S1 111s look a bit daft?

Ok, quick car history so you know what sort of performance I'm used to. 205gti, 16v integrale, and currently an e34 24v 525. I bought a flat and needed something cheap and it was rwd! The 5 isnt quick off the line but once wound up goes pretty well for a big barge, needs more that 4000rpm to really get going and it has stupid big heavy wheels which dont help the handling and also eat shocks but I haven't got round to changing them!
The 205 was a great car and the steering feel was one of the things I loved about it and one of the main things that draws me to an elise.

Don't really do a huge amount of motorway driving, south side out to the airport everyday, just dont fancy having diesel Astras flashing me out the way!!

Probably need to go drive a standard car and see how it feels

Colin

[campbell]

Forget the timings.

If you aren't in a hurry, get out there and try all 3 variants you quote and decide how they feel.

Here is my forecast ...

S2 std - quick, responsive, all you'll ever need in a first Elise

S2 111S - same but slightly more refined, especially when cruising

S2 135R - more raw than S2 std, still more refined than S1, feels mental for "just" 135bhp not least the v v firm damping...much more of an "experience" I'd imagine.

Note - I have only driven items 1 and 3 so item 2 is pure guesswork based on the known spec etc!

[cjm]

From reading the reviews when new I sort of got the impression the 135R was a bit full on as an everyday driver? Also thought there was a lotus 135 engine upgrade for the standard S2?

[campbell]

Robin and McKean are well placed to comment on 135R for daily use...PM them if they don't wade in here!

As for 135 engine upgrade for regular S2, yes absolutely, and for a short while was packaged as a special offer at something like £500-£900 IIRC...I came really really close to ordering an S2 at that point! Also, not to be confused with the 135R, was the S2 Sport 135 (or was it 135 Sport...) which had the head upgrade and perhaps re-trimmed seats and the odd toy or two to justify "special edition" status but was otherwise mostly std S2. Unlike its S1 Sport 135 cousin, which was set apart from regular S1s with aftermarket 135 conversion by its CR gearbox, Corbeau-trimmed seats, unique paint job and bunch of other details that I am getting too old to remember for sure.

At the end of the day, I don't know if there will be much price differential between the S2 variants you are considering...other than probably the 135R whose stock is rising (I reckon)...in which case, as I said before, it's back to just driving 'em and taking it from there.

My personal view is a std S2 in the best shape you can find is a fine place to start. Should you want a bit more grunt after a few thousand miles, an improved cylinder head is a great value and very accessible upgrade and you will source something better made than the Lotus-own 135 conversion for same or less money eg via Kiwi Rog at Sabre Heads - he did mine, Robin's, McKean's and others.

Anyway we are getting into seasoned owner territory now...so get yourself out for a few experiments! Perhaps a few people on here may be able to show you their own variety of S2 to help in the choosing.

A great problem to have!!


Campbell

[Shug]

From reading the reviews when new I sort of got the impression the 135R was a bit full on as an everyday driver? Also thought there was a lotus 135 engine upgrade for the standard S2?

Every elise is full-on as an everyday driver compared to most things. I'd be tempted in your position, to get a really clean standard S2, learn to drive it quickly in the corners and then spend a little on headwork (which needn't be much more than an grand - probably less than the differential between a standard S2 and a 135 second hand - ignore the factory upgrades if you want value for money) when you've mastered it. They are not straight-line cars, unless you spank £10k putting a honda in them. Having that slight power restriction on a new one means you're forced to discover where it's really quick, by maximising corner speed.

An Elise is not about in-gear times or straight line grunt - it's about how it feels to drive. Drive one (any one, even a totally bog-standard one) and if you don't love it the first time you go down a twisty B road, you'll never love it and should probably look elsewhere.

[alicrozier]

Biggest difference between std S2 and S2 111S is the gearbox IMO.
Ratio Difference
1st -3.66%
2nd -1.31%
3rd 5.98%
4th 9.19%
5th 5.97%

1st and 2nd a wee bit shorter, 3rd, 4th and 5th much longer. On a 111S the optimum change up point is always at the (higher, 7K) rev limiter.

If you look at the normalised torque curve of a standard S2 the optimum change up points are below the rev limit which further highlights the gearing. e.g. 3rd gear, 6300 rpm (83mph), 4th gear 6200 (103mph). The 111S will run to over 100mph in 3rd!

On track in a 111S the gap between 2nd and 3rd is very frustrating, a standard S2 will be quicker...until they have to change up. I'd say go for a 111S if it's predominantly a road car. For track work a standard S2 is a better starting point, spend the difference on a bit more power.

...dont fancy having diesel Astras flashing me out the way!!

Can happen on the toll roads.