The great gearbox debate ......

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Mikie711
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The great gearbox debate ......

Post by Mikie711 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:23 am

VW call it DSG, developed by Borg Wagner, Porsche call it PDK and Audi call it S-Tronic. Whatever it's called they are all essentially the same thing. A twin clutch gearbox. I had it in the R8 and 3.0l A4 we had and now have it in the Golf R and the T6 Transporter and would probably have it in any car in the future given that they are excellent at what they do in either normal, sports or manual modes.
We were discussing this recently and it would seem that the vast majority of people who have used one love them and see them as the future. (we of course know that the future is electric and no gearbox)
What's everyones thought on here, DSG or manual ? Oh and "because it's quicker on track" isn't a valid argument, for two reasons. One, none of us are F1 drivers despite what some think and two, it isn't you just can't change gear as quick as one of these.
Or can you?
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Stephen
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Re: The great gearbox debate ......

Post by Stephen » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:02 am

Mikie711 wrote:VW call it DSG, developed by Borg Wagner, Porsche call it PDK and Audi call it S-Tronic. Whatever it's called they are all essentially the same thing. A twin clutch gearbox. I had it in the R8 and 3.0l A4 we had and now have it in the Golf R and the T6 Transporter and would probably have it in any car in the future given that they are excellent at what they do in either normal, sports or manual modes.
We were discussing this recently and it would seem that the vast majority of people who have used one love them and see them as the future. (we of course know that the future is electric and no gearbox)
What's everyones thought on here, DSG or manual ? Oh and "because it's quicker on track" isn't a valid argument, for two reasons. One, none of us are F1 drivers despite what some think and two, it isn't you just can't change gear as quick as one of these.
Or can you?
Do they not have more faults than a standard box and said issue tend to be very expensive?
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rawsco
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Re: The great gearbox debate ......

Post by rawsco » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:41 am

Had the DCT box on the 335i a while back and loved it for pelting about with fazers set to malky but compared to a normal auto with a torque converter it wasn’t as smooth in traffic, particularly coasting up to then accelerating onto roundabouts when it would lurch annoyingly. In sport the gears were hammered in quite brutally (not sure if for Sporty effect, or to save wear on the clutches at WOT I suspect the former.) It never gave me issues bar the smoothness at times and was still better than a manual in traffic.

I believe BM have gone back to slush boxes for their fruity but non proper M cars.
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Re: The great gearbox debate ......

Post by douglasgdmw » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:05 am

Mikie711 wrote:Do they not have more faults than a standard box and said issue tend to be very expensive?
Yep they do. When I purchased the RS4 the first gearbox oil replacement was the first thing that I looked for when I was purchasing the car. If that has not been done then they are more likely to cause problems according to the internet threads.

Surprisingly, even though the car was purchased through an Audi garage, they did not do the st gearbox oil check (probably Edinburgh Audi for you). However I have heard a lot of Audi garages do not bother to validate the 1st gearbox oil change and just rely on the warranty to pick up any costs. OK when the car is in warranty but a considerable risk if its out of warranty.

Certainly a different approach of BMW garages compared to the M3 engine oil change - who according to the Edinburgh BMW garage would not have one on their forecourt if the 1st 1000 mile engine oil change had not been carried out according to spec.

On the original subject - too early days on my thoughts with the gearbox. Finding that when I am driving the car, the dogs are in the back, so sports exhaust off and pedestrian(ish) pace so they do not get bruise from being thrown around in the back. Not fair when Sandra gets all the fun on her daily commute :(

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Re: The great gearbox debate ......

Post by Stevoraith » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:39 am

I don’t think the ‘self-shifting revolution’ is solely the preserve of the twin-clutch boxes.

The ZF 8 speed that is fitted to BMWs, Jaguars and more seems to be the favourite of the motoring press, and I note that even Audi are now fitting it in place of the DSG to one of their new models (A7?).

I have the auto in my BMW, it’s the first self-shifter I’ve had and I wouldn’t want anything else on a daily driver.
So smooth 99% of the time, ridiculously quick changes when you’re pressing on, completely unobtrusive when around town. Brilliant gearbox.
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Re: The great gearbox debate ......

Post by graeme » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:47 am

Depends on the car and how it fits into the fleet.

Would I have a DSG box on a sports car? E.g. R8? No way. For me, 3-pedals is still an essential part of driving for pleasure.
Would I have one on a softer daily sports car, e.g. TT? Maybe. Probably would decide based on other spec and just take whatever gearbox it came with.
Would I have one on a new, upmarket expensive family car e.g. S4/Golf R? Yes, absolutely. It makes perfect sense to me for this.
Would I have one in a SUV or a big barge? No, auto makes more sense for wafting, and the ZF8s are so bloody good why bother with a twin-clutch?
Would I have one on a cheap, reliable family workhorse car? No. Simplicity = reliability = low running costs.

I've only got budget workhorses + fun cars, so they all need to be manual.
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Re: The great gearbox debate ......

Post by Rosssco » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:47 am

Given the progress of the current batch of torque converter autos with lock-up and the speed at which they shift (the ubiquitous 8-speed like I have in my 1-Series is very good), the additional cost, complexity and servicing requirements of the DSG mean its unlikely to see greater wide spread adoption past proper high-performance vehicles (IMO).
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Mike Scib
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Re: The great gearbox debate ......

Post by Mike Scib » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:38 am

For me, the weekend toy should be a manual and the daily an auto.
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Re: The great gearbox debate ......

Post by jason » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:01 pm

Never owned one, but have experienced several (week-long) VW garage loan cars with DSG when mine's been in for servicing/warranty.

First was a Jetta several years back which seemed to have a habit of finding false-neutrals when downshifting in 'manual' mode. On two occasions I rolled to a halt (thankfully on quiet country roads, not a motorway!) unable to persuade it to re-aquire drive until I'd turned off the engine. Yes, really.

Presently have a shiny new DSG'd Scirocco loaner (must be one of the last registered, as I think they've ceased production?). Effortlessly efficient acceleration through the gears, etc, but....

....for me I just find it so uninvolving when in 'manual' - besides the driving disconnect, I'm always checking the dash to verify my present gear perhaps because my left arm isn't getting the subconscious muscle memory feedback - and when in 'auto' for driving chores I think I'd prefer a slush-box's characteristics.


Appreciate some like it though. It's a subjective thing after all :thumbsup

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Re: The great gearbox debate ......

Post by rossybee » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:23 pm

graeme wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:47 am
Depends on the car and how it fits into the fleet.

Would I have a DSG box on a sports car? E.g. R8? No way. For me, 3-pedals is still an essential part of driving for pleasure.
Would I have one on a softer daily sports car, e.g. TT? Maybe. Probably would decide based on other spec and just take whatever gearbox it came with.
Would I have one on a new, upmarket expensive family car e.g. S4/Golf R? Yes, absolutely. It makes perfect sense to me for this.
Would I have one in a SUV or a big barge? No, auto makes more sense for wafting, and the ZF8s are so bloody good why bother with a twin-clutch?
Would I have one on a cheap, reliable family workhorse car? No. Simplicity = reliability = low running costs.

I've only got budget workhorses + fun cars, so they all need to be manual.
Bang-on my opinion.

A work colleague has a DSG Audi S3 and raves about it, but nah, a good mechanical shift like the BW T5 in the Cerb is such a pleasurable experience for "motoring" :thumbsup
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Re: The great gearbox debate ......

Post by Corranga » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:13 pm

graeme wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:47 am
Depends on the car and how it fits into the fleet.

Would I have a DSG box on a sports car? E.g. R8? No way. For me, 3-pedals is still an essential part of driving for pleasure.
Would I have one on a softer daily sports car, e.g. TT? Maybe. Probably would decide based on other spec and just take whatever gearbox it came with.
Would I have one on a new, upmarket expensive family car e.g. S4/Golf R? Yes, absolutely. It makes perfect sense to me for this.
Would I have one in a SUV or a big barge? No, auto makes more sense for wafting, and the ZF8s are so bloody good why bother with a twin-clutch?
Would I have one on a cheap, reliable family workhorse car? No. Simplicity = reliability = low running costs.

I've only got budget workhorses + fun cars, so they all need to be manual.
This sums it up perfectly for me too.
I appreciate the technology and work that has gone into these things, but I like my driving less encumbered by technology.
It's not all about 0-60 times or top speeds, or power, it's all about the experience, and flappy paddles (or buttons) remove some of that experience.
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Re: The great gearbox debate ......

Post by smitstui » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:10 pm

I wouldnt have on any form of Lotus (should it ever become available).
I always have autos now on family cars (maybe getting old).
I had one on my MK7 Golf GTi and I reckon it was one of the fastest real world machines I have ever owned due to the box. Just squeeze and go. Very quick in a TDi sort of way.
Also had the 9 speeder ZF on my wifes Evoque. Again a fantastic box, maybe just smoother than DSG in comfort, but so close its hard to say. Not as responsive as DSG box, but again so close.
Both boxes are now viable options, not like the 3 speeder slush boxes of old, and are great for daily grind driving.

A car for driving experience (such as lotus, GT86 etc) still has to be manual.

I have had a seat DSG at 100k+ miles and it didnt bother me as if it went wrong I would have scrapped it. My wifes current car is DSG and just out of warranty and that makes me nervous.
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Re: The great gearbox debate ......

Post by tonyg » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:18 pm

Like most people on here i prefer my manual, but you soon probably won't have a choice (even before everything goes electric).
New 5 series has no manual gearboxes, AFAIK you can't buy a performance Audi (apart from maybe the R8) with a manual box.
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Re: The great gearbox debate ......

Post by campbell » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:39 pm

We have broadly the same engine in 2 cars from different parts of the VW group.

One has DSG, the other a manual. Both 6-spd.

Enjoy driving both, for different reasons.

The manual makes the TT a little more satisfying to drive (it's already very good...but a DSG would neuter it a bit I feel)

The DSG on the Octavia suits the vRS nicely, and whilst we were happy to take DSG or manual (price and other features mattered more), I've grown to like it.

The 3 modes are fun too. Eco, Regular and Sport. Don't think the manual does that.

Not used it in serious snow though. I think that would pose limitations. I also think it makes the car slightly thirstier.

It's not as smooth on lower speed kick downs as I'd have thought. But generally a good effort. Sport mode is brilliant.

I've only limited experience of modern slushboxes. The one on our rental Mustang in Colorado last summer was "acceptable" but a manual would definitely bring that car alive more.

As for an auto Elise. Don't be silly. I've just about learned to heel & toe in ours and I'm loving it
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Re: The great gearbox debate ......

Post by scott_e » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:35 pm

rossybee wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:23 pm
graeme wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:47 am
Depends on the car and how it fits into the fleet.

Would I have a DSG box on a sports car? E.g. R8? No way. For me, 3-pedals is still an essential part of driving for pleasure.
Would I have one on a softer daily sports car, e.g. TT? Maybe. Probably would decide based on other spec and just take whatever gearbox it came with.
Would I have one on a new, upmarket expensive family car e.g. S4/Golf R? Yes, absolutely. It makes perfect sense to me for this.
Would I have one in a SUV or a big barge? No, auto makes more sense for wafting, and the ZF8s are so bloody good why bother with a twin-clutch?
Would I have one on a cheap, reliable family workhorse car? No. Simplicity = reliability = low running costs.

I've only got budget workhorses + fun cars, so they all need to be manual.
Bang-on my opinion.

A work colleague has a DSG Audi S3 and raves about it, but nah, a good mechanical shift like the BW T5 in the Cerb is such a pleasurable experience for "motoring" :thumbsup
Copy that too :thumbsup

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