Latest Tax Grab by SNP/Greens (Council tax)

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robin
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Re: Latest Tax Grab by SNP/Greens (Council tax)

Post by robin » Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:27 pm

I don't mind paying taxes. I mind incompetent governments.

Mike - your way of taxing works too - but it's not called progressive. A progressive tax (by definition) is the kind of tax you don't agree with - where the higher the income, the higher the overall % paid. You want a linear tax (aka flat rate), though I imagine you would still agree that there should be a tax free element to protect those on really low incomes (other mechanisms exist to achieve this; the tax free band is just one of them).

Fixed quantity taxes (like road tax used to be, poll tax, council tax, etc.) and capped taxes (like national insurance, insurance tax and others where the total amount you'll ever pay is more or less capped) are actually regressive taxes; they penalise the lower paid because they pay a higher % of their overall income. Depending on the mixture of progressive and regressive taxes that an individual pays, the % of overall income might be higher or lower than the "average" tax rate. Only looking at the big picture makes sense - total taxes spent on:

VAT, Fuel tax, income tax, national insurance, council tax, road tax, insurance tax, ...

The higher rate (progressive) tax bands offset the fixed and capped taxes (regressive). I suspect our system is regressive up to about 40K neutral up to somewhere in the 80K range and after that becomes progressive, but that's a pure guess (cannot be arsed to do all the sums ... it needs a really good spreadsheet and a lot of expenditure assumptions).

Also the higher paid generally have more choice on avoiding (legally) taxes (ISAs, pension fund tax refunds, ...). Of course it involves choosing to dispose of your income in certain ways, but you have that choice and someone earning 20K doesn't (how can they put £15K in an ISA or £40K in a pension ..).

I agree people should work to look after themselves and their families and that we must encourage that; but I do wonder what we do with those that cannot (or will not, if you prefer). I am reluctant to let their children starve, even if they are bone idle and certainly not if they have fallen on hard times for no fault of their own.

It's also not worth worrying too much about people in this category, because the state expenditure on them is minimal (less than 10% of state expenditure goes to the benefits system). Of course they cost us in uncollected taxes, but how much tax are they ever going to pay now.

The key is to ensure we change those behaviours in the future and to achieve that we need to spend a shed load more on education than we do right now. Education is the single best way to improve the country's standard of living in the long run (presented with no evidence but much faith).

Anyway, I would happily have a flat rate tax system, but I do wonder where the rest of the money to pay the pensions and health service will come from.

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Re: Latest Tax Grab by SNP/Greens (Council tax)

Post by robin » Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:39 pm

Stevoraith wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:27 am
Believe me, there’s nobody more annoyed about the way the SNP have set the higher rate tax band in Scotland. If I lived in England I’d save enough per year for a family holiday, something which we’re more than likely going to have to do without this year.
My understanding of the tax changes is that:

* A salary less than £30K will result in less tax in Scotland than England.
* A salary of £30K is about the same in Scotland and England
* A salary of £45K will result in £500 more tax in Scotland
* A salary of £200K will result in paying £2,500 more in Scotland

I realise nobody wants to pay more, but that doesn't seem that much to me, especially not at the £200K end of it ... certainly not enough to move?

Or have I miscalculated?

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Re: Latest Tax Grab by SNP/Greens (Council tax)

Post by j2 lot » Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:47 pm

It may not be enough to prompt a move South but it might be enough to stop a prospective move North or give enough incentive to look at avoidance in those that can.
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Re: Latest Tax Grab by SNP/Greens (Council tax)

Post by woody » Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:31 am

Did someone mention snp grab?

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Re: Latest Tax Grab by SNP/Greens (Council tax)

Post by robin » Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:17 am

I am not sure 500 will pay the adviser bill for any avoidance scheme. Meanwhile 75k was enough to justify avoidance costs with or without the extra 2.5k. Obviously there is a breakpoint in there, but it will be hit by people getting a small raise in England just the same.

Scotland has other financial benefits that offset the extra taxes (e.g. University tuition fee arrangements). Also anyone coming from anywhere near London will experience a reduction in living expenses.

I guess time will tell how it impacts the distribution of the workforce in Scotland. I havent seen any reports yet, but haven't looked either..

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Re: Latest Tax Grab by SNP/Greens (Council tax)

Post by Mikie711 » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:22 am

robin wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:27 pm


The key is to ensure we change those behaviours in the future and to achieve that we need to spend a shed load more on education than we do right now. Education is the single best way to improve the country's standard of living in the long run (presented with no evidence but much faith).

Now this I completely agree with and feel it is something we are lagging behind in. The long term damage poor education will have cannot be underestimated IMHO.
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Re: Latest Tax Grab by SNP/Greens (Council tax)

Post by campbell » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:27 am

Scotland once had an education system which was the envy of the world. Not sure where it started to turn, but it’s a great shame.
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Re: Latest Tax Grab by SNP/Greens (Council tax)

Post by hendeg » Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:35 am

robin wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:27 pm
I don't mind paying taxes. I mind incompetent governments.
Hear, hear! Same here - I don't mind paying tax when it's being used wisely.

I vote Robin to be the new Nicola.
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Re: Latest Tax Grab by SNP/Greens (Council tax)

Post by Stevoraith » Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:50 pm

robin wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:39 pm

My understanding of the tax changes is that:

* A salary less than £30K will result in less tax in Scotland than England.
* A salary of £30K is about the same in Scotland and England
* A salary of £45K will result in £500 more tax in Scotland
* A salary of £200K will result in paying £2,500 more in Scotland

I realise nobody wants to pay more, but that doesn't seem that much to me, especially not at the £200K end of it ... certainly not enough to move?

Or have I miscalculated?

Cheers,
Robin
Wondered if you'd contribute to this thread- balanced and sensible opinion as always :thumbsup

Thing is with the tax differences, paying less tax in Scotland means a maximum saving of £20 a YEAR.

Even to someone on minimum wage, £1.60 a month saving is completely negligible. Except of course for the part where the SNP get to trot out the headline that the majority of people pay less tax in Scotland (a classic case of miss-use of statistics).

The break-even point is around £27k I think.

At £50k the difference is £130 a MONTH extra in Scotland, and at that level of income that amount of money is significant.
That could mean a loan for a new car, or the majority of the cost of a week in the sun for the family.

(Having looked at it in more detail for my own personal situation, the difference for me is not as much as it could be as some of my tax burden is removed by my salary sacrifice pension scheme…)


But, and here is where I tie it back to my earlier post, that is doing without luxuries. And while it’s frustrating that if I lived a few miles south I’d be bringing home a fair bit more cash, it’s not the end of the world.

But if we asked someone on £25k to pay an extra 5-7% tax (as in Mikes flat-rate system) that would be a significant increase, but most importantly it wouldn’t be affecting luxuries, it would be affecting their ability to meet those fixed-cost living expenses which cannot be reduced.


I completely agree with Gary and Robin, I don’t have a problem with paying taxes as long as they are being used wisely, and I think this thread demonstrates that most of us will agree that we are happy to pay taxes if the system is fair.

However, what we deem fair very much depends on how much we earn!


woody wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:31 am
Did someone mention snp grab?
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Re: Latest Tax Grab by SNP/Greens (Council tax)

Post by rossybee » Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:42 pm

A good quote I saw recently;

"The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living"
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Re: Latest Tax Grab by SNP/Greens (Council tax)

Post by robin » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:31 pm

It might be a good soundbite but isn't true. The real problems stem from a lack of critical thinking. Not so catchy but life isn't Instagram 😁
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Re: Latest Tax Grab by SNP/Greens (Council tax)

Post by Mikie711 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:53 am

I agree that if you could see a tangible benefit to paying tax, good infrastructure, good services, shorter NHS waiting lists, better education system etc then I wouldn't mind so much paying disproportionally more. But we don't and politics these days seems less about the people and more about the politicians as if they are somehow now celebrities rather than public servants. It doesn't help that the system employed in government is archaic, out dated and clunky as well as expensive.
I think I read somewhere that in Scotland 21% of the working population are employed in the public sector, so every 4 people are supporting someone in public services, that has to be too many......

In a lot of ways Brexit is a prime example of how the government is more concerned about itself than the people they are meant to serve.
The vote, rightly or wrongly, was to leave. So arguing about the outcome and get on with the job at hand. Europe must be laughing their collective cock off at the shambles that has unfolded especially recently. Their, as in all of them, job is to secure the best deal for the country not themselves. Just get on and do your bloody jobs.
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Re: Latest Tax Grab by SNP/Greens (Council tax)

Post by Mikie711 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:00 am

robin wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:27 pm

Also the higher paid generally have more choice on avoiding (legally) taxes (ISAs, pension fund tax refunds, ...). Of course it involves choosing to dispose of your income in certain ways, but you have that choice and someone earning 20K doesn't (how can they put £15K in an ISA or £40K in a pension ..).
Generally people will improve their lifestyle first and then look at isa's and the like.
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Re: Latest Tax Grab by SNP/Greens (Council tax)

Post by robin » Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:51 am

Mikie711 wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:53 am
I agree that if you could see a tangible benefit to paying tax, good infrastructure, good services, shorter NHS waiting lists, better education system etc then I wouldn't mind so much paying disproportionally more.
Depending on how much you earn and how many taxes you take into consideration you might actually not be paying disproportionately more anyway. If it turned out you definitely weren't paying disproportionately more, how much happier would you be with the costs and effectiveness of our public sector.

See this random calculation - not particularly accurate - but shows % of income paid as taxes estimate for UK:

http://www.dsmann.co.uk/how-much-tax-do-we-really-pay/

It shows our combined system to be gently progressive - ranging from 36% to 43% of income paid from 35K to 80K. It doesn't model salary sacrifice or similar pension arrangements. If it did then the 80K could easily be flat % compared to 35K.
I think I read somewhere that in Scotland 21% of the working population are employed in the public sector, so every 4 people are supporting someone in public services, that has to be too many......
Why is that too many? Do you not need teachers, nurses, doctors, emergency services, etc.? How many fewer would you propose having? Half as many?

Also remember that the public sector people pay taxes too, so actually it's 5 tax payers paying for each public sector employee, not 4.
Their, as in all of them, job is to secure the best deal for the country not themselves. Just get on and do your bloody jobs.
If only there was a crystal ball and we could tell what the best deal would actually look like. If it turned out that in so far as anyone can tell, the best deal was the one we already have and so that's the one they selected, would you consider that them doing their jobs? Genuine question, not trying to be provocative. The last thing I want is a Brexit flame war :-). The truth is that no-deal is good only for some politicians and their shady backers; it's not good for anyone else - the argument that we'll save the £39billion isn't really a good one (look at our budgets; £39billion isn't that much) and mostly offset by tax losses/price rises/tariff impact on exports elsewhere. The negotiated deal isn't a deal, it's an agreement to leave and negotiate a deal later - that deal might be good or bad, who knows, but there's no going back if you don't like it. The current deal is known and good (socially and economically).

So I don't really think it's about logic and the "deal";if it were it would all be over already - we would stay where we are.

It must instead be about everything else. That everything else includes a bit of immigration anxiety, a bit of being fed up with Brussels and their boring rules and being a massive gravy train, a bit of nostalgia looking back to the British Empire glory days (not so glorious if you know your history) and a big spoonful of being pissed off with life in general and hoping that forcing a change will improve things (the smack it and hope approach to playing pool).

That set of concerns is much harder to address as a politician - there is no mitigation for most of these issues - and leaving isn't going to help. So in a wider sense the politicians are bound to fail. Ironically being forced to rule out the one good deal because we have to leave makes their job harder - they will fail economically (as all other deals are crap) as well as failing socially/ideologically (as none of the other concerns will be addressed); the Brussels gravy train is perhaps one thing we could win on - but unfortunately the capitalists have plans for your cash (putting it in their pockets) ... so we swap one set of unaccountable thieves for another ... I don't envy the politicians job now and in five years from now it will be worse.

All IMHO of course!!!

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Re: Latest Tax Grab by SNP/Greens (Council tax)

Post by campbell » Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:35 pm

Interesting analysis on an alternative “rich list” here...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47015517
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