Lotus' last combustion-engined sports car incoming

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robin
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Re: Lotus' last combustion-engined sports car incoming

Post by robin » Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:17 pm

P.S. If anyone wants a read this is the paper:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Br ... -urine.pdf

(Though note that it was a different paper that speculated on the closed loop, self powered option - this one only looks at urea electrolysis).
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Re: Lotus' last combustion-engined sports car incoming

Post by campbell » Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:50 pm

Pee powered narraboat. Awesome
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Re: Lotus' last combustion-engined sports car incoming

Post by Mikie711 » Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:04 pm

Something like this is more the answer than batteries.
also one of the many associated news articles here.
Why this didn't generate a lot more interest I don't know, other than if successful it would render Eion Musk's giga-factories redundant.
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Re: Lotus' last combustion-engined sports car incoming

Post by campbell » Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:11 pm

Good spot. Perhaps they are beavering away quietly on it. Just needs one of the energy big-players to back it I suppose.
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Re: Lotus' last combustion-engined sports car incoming

Post by robin » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:09 am

I can point you at 100 such articles of "new battery technology". It takes 10s of years and millions of dollars to convert a nice idea into a practical reality that can be manufactured. There is no illuminati out there shooting down novel battery technologies so as to protect Musk's giga factories, you know ;-) Just investors that need more than a cool idea to part with $$$.

In fact Tesla have acquired several start ups in the field of batteries and associated tech (no flow batteries, as far as I know).

To make a flow battery of the type described in your article work you need a refuelling infrastructure not totally unlike petrol/diesel, but for flow batteries you are swapping out the electrolyte which adds some extra hassles - you need to find a way to recover the spent electrolyte from the vehicle and make sure you only put back in the quantity you take out (otherwise your fuel station runs out of electrolyte) and also make sure that the electrolyte you take out isn't junk otherwise you contaminate your electrolyte tank. Etc. etc. So it's a nice idea, but there's a lot of logistics and investment required to make it into reality and you need to get people to sign up to not just making the cars, but also to deploying the electrolyte replenishment infrastructure.

Hydrogen is in fact easier to deploy and the tech is here already - vis the Toyota Mirai. It has pretty much the same big-picture infrastructure as exchangeable electrolyte flow batteries, but the neat thing is the waste fluid is just water and can be dumped at the point of use, so long as there is water elsewhere to electrolyse to make new Hydrogen (or Natural Gas to "split" into Hydrogen and CO2). So it is actually simpler (no need to worry about recovery) and needs the same infrastructure.

Flow batteries and hydrogen fuel cells are closely related things, at least in some of the tech involved. As companies work more on fuel cells capable of reacting liquid forms of Hydrogen at moderate pressures and temperatures (like Ammonia), it could be a drop in replacement for diesel.

But technology aside, each and every one of these things is a battery and we're just quibbling about the exact way in which (mainly) wind&solar energy is buffered and delivered to the vehicle. My money is still on Elon Betamusk-style Lithium Ion for family cars and Hydrogen for everything else.

UK gov could do a lot worse than spunk some cash on UK research and tech companies to stimulate a UK Hydrogen economy. Chances are they'll make the same mistakes as before, though, and all the tech will end up elsewhere - after all the Free Market must be right ;-) The only people worse than UK gov is Big Oil - note I am not having a go at their oil & gas activities, just that they failed to take all that wedge and really invest it in, say, Hydrogen, when the writing was on the wall. Now they have probably left it too late (for their shareholders). They still have a huge advantage - I cannot imagine other players will have the know how, budget and infrastructure to take Hydrogen from nowhere (where it is now) to the one true fuel - all those tanks and pumps and pipes and safety protocols and and and. I just don't get their reluctance to engage meaningfully.

It's certainly going to be an interesting decade!
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Re: Lotus' last combustion-engined sports car incoming

Post by Mikie711 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:56 pm

Big Oils problem has always been that they are very resistant to change. Last rig I worked on was near the pinnacle of the technology in drilling, missing few bells and whistles like multi machine interface and some other bits and bobs, but was at best a 10 year old design. That said anything they do develop has to be robust in the extreme because of the environment it will be used in and the cost of repair if it breaks. Tried and tested wins every time over new and fragile.
Their resistance to letting go of oil is partly due to the amount invested in current infrastructure. trillions and trillions of dollars in refineries, rig, tankers, pipe lines, subsea infrastructure etc etc etc and the belief that it still has some legs left before the world is anywhere near done with the black stuff.
All that said most of the big majors have started the switch to greener technologies and without doubt will be heavily invested in anything to do with green energy production in ways that are not evident to use mere mortals.
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Re: Lotus' last combustion-engined sports car incoming

Post by avdb » Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:27 pm

I would be very keen on a Lotus EV sports car. Something like the Apex AP-0 would in the right direction.
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Re: Lotus' last combustion-engined sports car incoming

Post by robin » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:00 pm

The AP-0 looks madder than a box of dragons :-) I agree it's what lotus should aim for if they are to continue their niche of performance through reduced weight. I don't fancy crashing one though. New tub sir? That'll be 100K please ... plus the VAT, obvz.
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