Should I be worried? Advice needed!

[KennyT]

Hi everyone I’m looking for some advice from those who know best.

I was under my car (99 S1 135 with 68k) for the first time on Saturday fitting new rear toe links and saw a few things which worried me a little…

First thing- Near side inner toe link mount
As you can see from the picture this has been welded round the original ball joint. The bolt was pretty stiff coming off so it didn’t feel like it had been off before or for a while.
Also round the mount there are several holes been drilled where it looks like somebody has had several attempts at fitting the alloy cover that comes with the upgrade.



On the off side there were no problems at all, it went by the book:


Few questions then- Should I be worried or has anyone seen this before? What do you think has gone on before?

Second thing- Exhaust flexi
The braiding on my exhaust flexi is coming unwound, is the braiding there just to protect the flexi from stones etc or does it provide any other purpose? I couldn’t feel a blow from round there but I’m guessing that could be the weak point from now on?


Third thing- Moisture at the head
Picture first:

Car hasn’t used any coolant in 6months, dipstick, oil filler cap and expansion tank look in perfect condition. I’m always really careful to get it up to temperature etc but is this an early warning of something nasty?

Finally on a lighter note- random wires!
These two wires fell out the engine bay onto my driveway while I was doing the near side toe link, fell from near the luggage compartment basically underneath where all the main wiring is.
Could this be related to my starter not working properly? The wires had a pin on each wire and were taped together as the photo shows:


Well that’s all I have for now, I might be a little paranoid for no reason but I’d really appreciate some opinions and hopefully put my mind at rest or point me in the direction of getting it sorted!

Thanks, Kenny

[KennyT]

Ok I've had a bit of an explanation on the toe link mount from Mike- where the bolt goes through was egg shaped so it was plated short term then then repaired more permanently by Dan at SPS.
The plate the garage fitted looked like......


What are the opinions on long term? Will it need attention in the future? Now I've put the stronger toe links on will the weld become the weak point and fail?

Good to know this now, still looking for help on the other things if anyone knows anything!

[robin]

The proper fix is to replace the subframe, but that's expensive!

Plating is fine, but you need the plate fitted, as per the photograph you posted in second post. Was that plate fitted before you started, if not, where has it gone?

Under no circumstances should you rely on the uprated toe link shield as a substitute for that plate. The shield puts the wishbone/toe link pivot bolt into double sheer, which reduces the tendency of the bolt to break, but relies totally on the subframe hole being solid, otherwise it's in single sheer with a large moment and will, without doubt, fail.

If you've currently got the subframe+weld as per the first photograph that you posted in first post + the uprated toe link shield, I would say that was unsafe and liable to fail under load. I can see some cracks in the weld already ...

The subframes are galvanized steel to prevent corrosion; if you repair it with untreated steel it will corrode soon enough. If you repair it with alloy you'll get electrolytic corrosion, and you'll have the problem that the alloy will need to be fairly thick and so will offset the toe link balljoint by a little, which will change the bump steer characteristics on that side a little.

The loads on the toe links are huge - toe link mounting failure at high speed = big accident!

Maybe the second best fix is to remove the subframe, get the affected area cut out and replaced with a new piece patterned from the other side, then get the whole thing re-galvanized. It's a huge amount of labour though ...

Cheers,
Robin

[robin]

The oily leakage around the head looks very mild I would totally ignore that unless it's properly wet and you're losing fluid.

The wires on the drive might be part of the rear lighting loom - they often melt under heat from exhaust - check your rear lights (number plate, fog, reverse as well as the side, break and indicators). I'll bet at least some of them won't work! They certainly have nothing to do with the starter motor circuit.

The flexi braid fraying is common and usually a precursor to the flexi joint failing. When it does fail, you can replace with a s/s one for ~100 for the parts.

Cheers,
Robin

P.S. the wires might have been the remnants of a previous repair - sometimes these bits of wire get lost in the clam when they're chopped off ....

[Rich H]

It should not pass an MOT like that as it's a structual point and that weld is horrible!

OTOH: that welding is cack, but I see no issue with a properly cut out and mig/tig welded repair not pigeon sh*t arc weld like that
My bet is they never cleaned off the galv so it wouldn't arc properly or were just rubbish at welding.... I can barely weld but my welding is better than that!

A neat continuous weld is vital for strength and it should ideally be inspected properly. I doubt the subframe needs to come out but the wishbone needs to come out.

I'd like to see it cut back well clear of the old weld affected area I'd also like to see a butt strap welded over the top too.

It will need some sort of rust prevention especially on the inside but weld thru spray followed by waxyoil of some description would do it.

As robin says the cover is jsut to help relieve the bolt a bit, and should not be relied upon.

Also loving the brick axle stand in the 1st pic....

[KennyT]

Big thanks for getting back to me Robin and Rich, the feedback is kind of what i was expecting about the toe link mount.

To clear things up a little- A slight ovaling of the hole about 2mm was noticed on French Frolic last year a garage in France plated it (and used the dodgy brick axle stand!) After the trip the plate was removed and welded as shown with original toe links. I bought the car in december and have put Eliseparts uniball toe links on with the stainless cover so the M10 pivot bolt is in double shear through the cover and the 'poorly welded' washer.

Having worked on race cars and offshore I've seen some good welding, but this is the other end of the scale I am keen to have a more permanent repair done so have priced a new rear subframe at £740 and one from a breakers at £530, neither of which i can justify! I believe there has been a washer welded on the the subframe which I would be happy with if the welding was neater and the area re-treated.

What I would like to do is cut the affected section (about 1.5inch square) cut out and have it replaced with a new piece of galvinised steel with the correct sized hole, welded up and treated. That should be do-able with the subframe in place, only removing the wishbone but is that overkill? Am I making more of it than i need to?

The car has done 6000 spirited miles under my ownership and a few under Mikes last year with this fix (and Kuhmo's), I'm inclined to leave it to the winter and continue the summer I had planned of several track days and B-road blasts, would anyone else do the same?

I'll check the lights etc to see it that's where the wires came from, not really a major concern though.

I'll just continue to keep an eye on the head, goes without saying really. If the worst happens I have P&L

[robin]

I would not drive that car on track. I wouldn't even be happy to drive it at speed on the motorway.

Some type of plate is required; a washer would be OK were it tough enough material and thick enough.

The loads on these are very high during high speed cornering and the result of it going wrong is that the rear wheel will simply fold and point at the hedges ... the car will follow shortly. I've seen it happen a few times.

Cheers,
Robin

[Rich H]

What he said, I'd not risk it, it should be an MOT fail looking like that and should the worst happen....

If there is a washer under there then I'd whip the wishbone off and grind it flat. That welding needs to go.
Then make up a plate (like the bolted on one) and then weld it in place.
Finally bolt/steel rivet the cover plate through both subframe and extra plate.

If you cut the plate slightly undersize round the outside edge you can lap weld round the outer edge - it'll be easier than trying to weld the edges.
I'd put a bolt in the wishbone hole while you weld it to preserve the alignment
I'd also have a wet rag handy and seam weld it in short runs <20mm a time & use the wet rag between each burst to reduce any warpage.

It'll be stronger than the original and much improved over the pigeon sh!t!

Edited to add: do not use Galv plate! It will not weld so the galv needs to be ground off, then when it gets hot any galv left burns off adn give you nasty diesease...
Use normal anti-rust type stuff The SS plate will protect it form the worst of the heat down there.

[Mike Scib]

To answer a few of the questions.....

While on route to the first hotel in Le Mans the car seemed pretty vague at speed so once there i got Walshy and the Lotus mechanic to have a look thinking maybe the toe link was gone but it turned out it was the hole it self where the bolt goes through the subframe was oval-ed by about 2mm, enough to notice the rear moving at speed. Initially we tried just to tighten the bolt up some more using 2 nuts to lock it into place, however that did not work. So i was advised to have a washer welded to the sub frame. I found a Lotus specialist who was not keen on welding it so plated instead as seen in the pics above. This lasted the rest of the trip no with no problems at all and i was advised by other that it was sound.

Once home i ask Dan to basically to tidy it up by welding a washer over the existing hole and to fill in with weld where the bolts from the plate had gone through. I was told by Walshy that quite a few race cars have this done if they have been hit so had no reason to think other wise.

"Could you also have a look at the rear toe link where it goes into the chassis to tidy it up hopefully removing the plate. Behind the plate is just the normal hole just slightly egged"

I had no idea the welding was the state the pictures show as there was a cover over it which Dan told me was to protect the rubber from the heat of the exhaust! I agree with the others in thats it would of been a better idea just to leave the plate!

As for the "brick", it is in fact a piece of wood under the jacking point due to the type of ramp he used, which i don't see a problem with tbh??

Mike

[Rich H]

No problem with wood, but bricks are not good!
I've used a few bricks in the past - but I should know better...

[roadboy]

Just to add my 2p.

I agree that it would have been best to leave the plate in place but I was specifically asked by the customer to remove it and solve the problem in a way that couldn't be seen easily.

The washer used was 3mm thick and more than up to the job. The welding is sh*t as I ran out of gas but had to do the best I could as I did not have time to play with. I had a good look at it and deemed it to be strong enough. Not pretty I agree. The washer is there as a support and not a replacement for the original subframe piece. I think to say it is inherently dangerous is a big overeaction.

Also, it was treated with POR15 so can't understand how it is so rusty.

Dan

[Rich H]

Fair enough on the support-not-replace if the structure is still intact underneath but it needs attention now it's corroded.

IMHO the welded washer repair is valid, it's used all over the place, but the welding needs to be sorted out.
Without gas you have no shielding so no way of preventing inclusions of oxide in the weld - hence the corrosion.

Rich

[roadboy]

Agreed!

Dan

[KennyT]

Thanks for the input again.

I agree having a washer in place would be fine since it's only backing up the subframe and not replacing any steel, I've seen it done on Fiesta race cars in the past. What I will do is grind all the old weld off and have it re-done neatly.

Now that I've put the stronger toe links on the worst case scenario is if the weld breaks completely (which isn't too likely), the toe link will be free to move inside the oval'd hole which Mike says is only about 2mm- This wouldn't be pleasant but preferable to a complete toe link failure.

It's been interesting getting to the bottom of this little find, I'd have liked it if I'd known about it when I bought the car but we'll not go in to that.

Mike, Dan- Cheers for your honesty now. I'm sure everything was done with the best intention but you can understand why my arse twitched a bit finding that on such a "Well maintained car" with a massive folder of service history and reciepts. I wasn't expecting any surprises.

My two previous BMW's and the Honda before that were effortless to own- to the world of Lotus Elise! God damn it's good fun though!