K Series 1.8,1.9 or 2.0 litre ?

[tut]

£5.1K

tut

[r10crw]

2nd time Ive typed this, it really does piss me off when it crashes as you submit!!
Not wanting to jump onto your thread Alan but to explain.
I had the problem with the engine couple months back where the engine temp read 120 as I came into Banff after leving Rickys (only a 10 min drive) so I killed the engine and let it coast down the hill. At the bottom I pressed the starter to get her moving and somewhere safe where I could park the car and investigate. Only trouble was all I got was a click so assumed starter solenoid. Got out removed engine cover and shorted the starter solenoid but still nothing. At this point I noticed the oil on the undertray and thought the worst. Dipped it and saw it on the minimum mark. Tried to push start the car with help from four friendly neds but when releasing the clutch the wheels slid and did not turn the engine over. At this point I gave up, towed the car home threw a cover over and forgot about it.
I then bought a Honda and supercharger but after changing my mind about 50 times decided to stay K series. Found VGK racing who was very helpful and offered me the chance of a replacment head with bigger valves etc and the 2.0 bottom end for reasonable money. In the end it would have been something like 5.5K in costs but would have been a pretty special K. On a side note I cannot recomend Vicente enough, he has terrible english (mines not too great either) but his replies by email were always prompt and he comes over as a guy who really does want too help. Cant recomend him enough.
Anyway....
Starter stripping down the car yesterday, so body off and then just before drainign the engine etc I dipped the oil. To my surprise it was around half. Then when disconnecting the starter I forgot to dicsonnect the battery. Strangely as I removed the connection the fuel pump started and the dash lights came on for fun!
So bad earth somewhere.
Next measured the battery voltage at 12.6 so thats fine but with access to the battery I grabbed the thumper and low and behold the battery could only supply 10 amps!
Topped up the fluids, new battery in and the engine fired up within seconds.
Had had my stethoscope all over the engine and can hear no unusual knocks or rattles from the bottom end. Let it get up to temp and the stat opened at 85 and all temps settled okay. Checked ECU temps and corresponds to within 1 degree of the stack.
Im obviously a little wary just now. I can explain the failure to turn over with shorting as the faulty battery and the push start could have been an error from me but I dont understand the temp at 120. The battery failure shouldnt cause this?

So there it is, on one hand really pleased the engine appears to be okay on the other hand dissappointed to not be getting a special K, of course with it being a VHPD its only a matter of time.

[Gourlay83]

I do remember you having trouble, and did sound serious. Hopefully be the last of it.

I'm just going to be rebuilding the Engine to original spec. The Frogs quick enough anyway. I'm looking at £1000 for a complete re build, much less if it wasn't for the forged pistons (which is the reason I really have to re build).

Alan

[r10crw]

I was a little scared about doing the bottom end myself so If I was having to pay to get it done I figured get something special done at the same time. The 340 is a bit heavier than your cat and although not slow she could use a little low down torque which I thought would have been achieved with the 2.0.
Do you have dial gauges I could borrow. Just to set up the cams?
Craig.

[KingK_series]

I do remember you having trouble, and did sound serious. Hopefully be the last of it.

I'm just going to be rebuilding the Engine to original spec. The Frogs quick enough anyway. I'm looking at £1000 for a complete re build, much less if it wasn't for the forged pistons (which is the reason I really have to re build).

Alan

Forged pistons are a liability because they do not last like OE cast pistons

IS THIS TRUE???


This is the thing, cast OE pistons run very close bore clearances, on K 0.015- 0.045mm. Why is this? Well OE engines are expected to be refined and never 'slap' but also do everything from very short runs [down to the newsagent and back] and in all weathers including sub zero, they are not by enlarge expected to get very hot - ie do track work [otherwise they'd all come with big oil coolers] plus the cast ally has a very different rate of thermal expansion to billet or forged ally, - cast pistons don't expand like forgings do.

Forgings on the other hand are meant to be revved and be strong enough not to crack under those loads, because they expand more than a casting AND BECAUSE THEY ARE DESIGNED FOR HOT USE they tend to be set with greater bore clearances, typically 9500rpm race engine like mine will have clearances at 0.125 [almost 10x OE!] on a road engine that did track days I'd set clearance at 0.085mm, the Omega VHPD 80mm pot piston was specced at 0.055mm for road going Exiges/340Rs - a tiny amount more than OE.

Now here's the crunch - it can be that because of that extra clearance the piston skirt gets scuffed/knocked out of shape because the engine is repeatedly run cold, that should not happen if you treat your forged piston engine like a track engine, ie start it use it and get it hot because the pistons will expand to close the clearance and stop the 'slapping' that will eventually wear them, on the other hand take your race prepped engine down to the cornershop and back every day, preventing it from getting hot - you will wear the piston.


In other words do not take it as a given you need to replace forgings, strip them, inspect them, measure them up and replace them if they are abused, if not you are throwing money away...


As a footnote.................. proper race engines - ie BTCC get strip downs at very short intervals because teams expect preventative rebuilds - ie replace long before a part comes anyway near failing so as to insure it does not fail - 6 rebuilds a year at 6 grand a time are much cheaper than one valve breaking and costing a championship.


That by the bye was why I was asked to build my BTCC engine - I had long thought I could get a better result than Judd, but the moment came when Judd failed to replace a set of valves, valves which were waisted very crudely by hand [cheap] and one broke, costing Colin the lead of a race and the 2006 championship.

[KingK_series]

2nd time Ive typed this, it really does piss me off when it crashes as you submit!!
Not wanting to jump onto your thread Alan but to explain.
I had the problem with the engine couple months back where the engine temp read 120 as I came into Banff after leving Rickys (only a 10 min drive) so I killed the engine and let it coast down the hill. At the bottom I pressed the starter to get her moving and somewhere safe where I could park the car and investigate. Only trouble was all I got was a click so assumed starter solenoid. Got out removed engine cover and shorted the starter solenoid but still nothing. At this point I noticed the oil on the undertray and thought the worst. Dipped it and saw it on the minimum mark. Tried to push start the car with help from four friendly neds but when releasing the clutch the wheels slid and did not turn the engine over. At this point I gave up, towed the car home threw a cover over and forgot about it.
I then bought a Honda and supercharger but after changing my mind about 50 times decided to stay K series. Found VGK racing who was very helpful and offered me the chance of a replacment head with bigger valves etc and the 2.0 bottom end for reasonable money. In the end it would have been something like 5.5K in costs but would have been a pretty special K. On a side note I cannot recomend Vicente enough, he has terrible english (mines not too great either) but his replies by email were always prompt and he comes over as a guy who really does want too help. Cant recomend him enough.
Anyway....
Starter stripping down the car yesterday, so body off and then just before drainign the engine etc I dipped the oil. To my surprise it was around half. Then when disconnecting the starter I forgot to dicsonnect the battery. Strangely as I removed the connection the fuel pump started and the dash lights came on for fun!
So bad earth somewhere.
Next measured the battery voltage at 12.6 so thats fine but with access to the battery I grabbed the thumper and low and behold the battery could only supply 10 amps!
Topped up the fluids, new battery in and the engine fired up within seconds.
Had had my stethoscope all over the engine and can hear no unusual knocks or rattles from the bottom end. Let it get up to temp and the stat opened at 85 and all temps settled okay. Checked ECU temps and corresponds to within 1 degree of the stack.
Im obviously a little wary just now. I can explain the failure to turn over with shorting as the faulty battery and the push start could have been an error from me but I dont understand the temp at 120. The battery failure shouldnt cause this?

So there it is, on one hand really pleased the engine appears to be okay on the other hand dissappointed to not be getting a special K, of course with it being a VHPD its only a matter of time.

Two questions? - where did the oil on the undertray come from?

2/ did the engine get to 120deg? - if so you are more than likely to have cooked the head, annealed it and will have interminable so called "HGF"s until said head is replaced.


on a broder front VHPD for VERY HIGH PERFORMANCE DISATER engine because

1/ Chambronne made crank is 350-400gmm out of balance [same as honda]
2/ flywheel is generally 300gmm out of balance
3/ clutch is crap pressed steel and out of balance, often giving total out of balance 600-700gmm [indecently same as honda - why does it feel so much worse in VHPD - because honda has massive cast iron inserts in block around crank mains [agricultural but stiff and heeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaavy] plus honda has all ten crank webs doweled [very good thing, I do this at very considerable expense and trouble on ALL my builds] - together these features hold onto the crank and stop the block weaving, whereas in K the crank flywheel tend to make block wiggle which causes everything to 'slap' - causing typical VHPD racket.
4/ uses old AS15 spec bearings - how? VHPDs were built in or after 2000, yet the AS15 bearing was superceeded in all 1.8l builds by the harder AS16 bearing in 1998 - could it be that the builders of the VERYHIGHPERFORMANCEDISASTER engines didn't know? couldn't care less? had old stock? which they wanted to recover investment from?.....you decide
5/uses gravity cast GKN iron liners..............which surprise surprise were superceeded at factory by spun cast [much denser] Federal Mogul liners in......wait you got it 1998. The old liner was always made outside Rover tolerances - which was why it came graded and was superceeded. ie it caused slap.



................ don't let me go on to the aftermarket cams etc etc

[kerryxeg]

So am I to understand that my current service method of an oil change every 4 fills of petrol will not keep my VHPD running for ever!

Thanks for the explanation on the Pistons, now at least I understand a little. As my car only runs a few time in the summer months and usually only for a longer runs at relatively low revs I'm hoping for a few more years before refreshing, but this conversation is raising my awareness. Touch wood but mine was still producing healthy performance when mapped a couple of months ago.

I guess I'm a bit like Craig, when the day comes, it'll be something to look forward to.

I do have one question on engine temperature - I fitted a remote thermostat as a precaution, it is very effective, to the extent that the running temperature can be affected by the air temperature, speed etc. Since fitting the Emerald the temperature is reasonably stable on the road and the car is generally much happier with the lower temp than with a standard ECU, so I'm just wondering if there is a recommended minimum.

[KingK_series]

So am I to understand that my current service method of an oil change every 4 fills of petrol will not keep my VHPD running for ever!

Thanks for the explanation on the Pistons, now at least I understand a little. As my car only runs a few time in the summer months and usually only for a longer runs at relatively low revs I'm hoping for a few more years before refreshing, but this conversation is raising my awareness. Touch wood but mine was still producing healthy performance when mapped a couple of months ago.

I guess I'm a bit like Craig, when the day comes, it'll be something to look forward to.

I do have one question on engine temperature - I fitted a remote thermostat as a precaution, it is very effective, to the extent that the running temperature can be affected by the air temperature, speed etc. Since fitting the Emerald the temperature is reasonably stable on the road and the car is generally much happier with the lower temp than with a standard ECU, so I'm just wondering if there is a recommended minimum.

my engines run my own bespoke PRT at 74 deg, the temp that engine runs best at, the stat will prevent it running cooler than that.

you should have the MGTF 82 deg PRT, DITTO for 82deg.

always give engine enough throttle to warm up quickly, ie blip it to 4/5000, taking 20 mins to warm up will do way more wear than booting it a bit. Always use decent oil, - preferably a 0 w something

[Gourlay83]

Simon, all good information and much appreciated. I still think 25k out of a VHPD is pushing it, considering its been used on road and track.

just trying to take some precautions, as I want to travel to France & Spa next year. I'm sure you know where I'm coming from.

on Craig's post, do you not mean 'normalising' where the part is heated then left to cool in free air. Annealing is heated and then cooled in a controlled manner.

Alan

[KingK_series]

Simon, all good information and much appreciated. I still think 25k out of a VHPD is pushing it, considering its been used on road and track.

just trying to take some precautions, as I want to travel to France & Spa next year. I'm sure you know where I'm coming from.

on Craig's post, do you not mean 'normalising' where the part is heated then left to cool in free air. Annealing is heated and then cooled in a controlled manner.

Alan

Lm 25 is a heat treated metal - heated over a 24hr period then given a quench which gives it it's mechanical properties,


annealing does the opposite-


the wiki definition;-

Annealing, in metallurgy and materials science, is a heat treatment wherein a material is altered, causing changes in its properties such as strength and hardness. It is a process that produces conditions by heating to above the recrystallization temperature, maintaining a suitable temperature, and then cooling. Annealing is used to induce ductility, soften material, relieve internal stresses, refine the structure by making it homogeneous, and improve cold working properties.

In the cases of copper, steel, silver, and brass, this process is performed by substantially heating the material (generally until glowing) for a while and allowing it to cool. Unlike ferrous metals—which must be cooled slowly to anneal—copper, silver[1] and brass can be cooled slowly in air or quickly by quenching in water. In this fashion the metal is softened and prepared for further work such as shaping, stamping, or forming.

[kerryxeg]

Temp - I've got the QED remote thermostat which shows an indicated 74 to 75 - they seem to have a reputation of running at very low temps. On track it topped 76 at one point on a longer run, so certainly very effective. Oil is 0/40 so should be fine, I'm a strong believer in Mobil 1 - I used to work with them the marketing stats were very convincing. Warming up, I'll pay more attention to in future, or at least apply some thought. Thanks for the re-assurance

Alan 25k seems very pessimistic, but I guess it depends on how many miles at high revs etc. I'm at 43k miles and touch wood ok, I certainly recall a few untouched exiges into the 60k and 70kmiles. These were being used as everyday cars, which by the sounds of things could have been harder on the engine than a few longer road runs and the odd track visit.

[KingK_series]

Temp - I've got the QED remote thermostat which shows an indicated 74 to 75 - they seem to have a reputation of running at very low temps. On track it topped 76 at one point on a longer run, so certainly very effective. Oil is 0/40 so should be fine, I'm a strong believer in Mobil 1 - I used to work with them the marketing stats were very convincing. Warming up, I'll pay more attention to in future, or at least apply some thought. Thanks for the re-assurance

Alan 25k seems very pessimistic, but I guess it depends on how many miles at high revs etc. I'm at 43k miles and touch wood ok, I certainly recall a few untouched exiges into the 60k and 70kmiles. These were being used as everyday cars, which by the sounds of things could have been harder on the engine than a few longer road runs and the odd track visit.

oe build VHPDisater........25k of road and track............is quite possibly enough for a rebuild, .......But I'd say 1 mile was too many to run it without stripping it and putting it to rights


on the other hand an engine that is put right should last like any other decent OE engine given the same type of mileage..

[Gourlay83]

Simon, all good information and much appreciated. I still think 25k out of a VHPD is pushing it, considering its been used on road and track.

just trying to take some precautions, as I want to travel to France & Spa next year. I'm sure you know where I'm coming from.

on Craig's post, do you not mean 'normalising' where the part is heated then left to cool in free air. Annealing is heated and then cooled in a controlled manner.

Alan

Lm 25 is a heat treated metal - heated over a 24hr period then given a quench which gives it it's mechanical properties,


annealing does the opposite-


the wiki definition;-

Annealing, in metallurgy and materials science, is a heat treatment wherein a material is altered, causing changes in its properties such as strength and hardness. It is a process that produces conditions by heating to above the recrystallization temperature, maintaining a suitable temperature, and then cooling. Annealing is used to induce ductility, soften material, relieve internal stresses, refine the structure by making it homogeneous, and improve cold working properties.

In the cases of copper, steel, silver, and brass, this process is performed by substantially heating the material (generally until glowing) for a while and allowing it to cool. Unlike ferrous metals—which must be cooled slowly to anneal—copper, silver[1] and brass can be cooled slowly in air or quickly by quenching in water. In this fashion the metal is softened and prepared for further work such as shaping, stamping, or forming.

that's pretty much what I said. Annealing reduces some hardness from a heat treated material. Annealing is when you let the material cool in a controlled manner.

normalising is heating the material (above upper critical) then allowed to cool in still air (un controlled).

If you cook your engine then turn it off (muttering p*shy k series), I would class that as normalising.

Another point, what's the upper critical of the head material ? and would you be hitting it ?

normally wouldn't bother Simon, but since you like your technical discussions

Alan

[KingK_series]

Simon, all good information and much appreciated. I still think 25k out of a VHPD is pushing it, considering its been used on road and track.

just trying to take some precautions, as I want to travel to France & Spa next year. I'm sure you know where I'm coming from.

on Craig's post, do you not mean 'normalising' where the part is heated then left to cool in free air. Annealing is heated and then cooled in a controlled manner.

Alan

Lm 25 is a heat treated metal - heated over a 24hr period then given a quench which gives it it's mechanical properties,


annealing does the opposite-


the wiki definition;-

Annealing, in metallurgy and materials science, is a heat treatment wherein a material is altered, causing changes in its properties such as strength and hardness. It is a process that produces conditions by heating to above the recrystallization temperature, maintaining a suitable temperature, and then cooling. Annealing is used to induce ductility, soften material, relieve internal stresses, refine the structure by making it homogeneous, and improve cold working properties.

In the cases of copper, steel, silver, and brass, this process is performed by substantially heating the material (generally until glowing) for a while and allowing it to cool. Unlike ferrous metals—which must be cooled slowly to anneal—copper, silver[1] and brass can be cooled slowly in air or quickly by quenching in water. In this fashion the metal is softened and prepared for further work such as shaping, stamping, or forming.

that's pretty much what I said. Annealing reduces some hardness from a heat treated material. Annealing is when you let the material cool in a controlled manner.

normalising is heating the material (above upper critical) then allowed to cool in still air (un controlled).

If you cook your engine then turn it off (muttering p*shy k series), I would class that as normalising.

Another point, what's the upper critical of the head material ? and would you be hitting it ?

normally wouldn't bother Simon, but since you like your technical discussions

Alan

Well there is a debate about semantics there -

At Uni in the metallurgy dept we all used to call heating copper wire red hot and then allowing it to cool [in air] so it was soft and could be beaten flat 'annealing' - the difference is that ferrous metals must be cooled in a 'controlled' manner in order to soften their state, cpper, copper alloys Ally can be annealed by cooling in air - that includes K series heads.

However the point whatever you want to call it is that you get above a certain temp with the K and because it is LM25 it will go soft and that is the cause of most "HGF"s

what is that temp - locally about 550deg c, but you can easily get that happening with coolant temps of 110 deg c.