Car not starting after flat battery.

The place to "speak geek"
Post Reply
Andym67
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:07 pm
Location: Glasgow (city of)

Car not starting after flat battery.

Post by Andym67 » Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:04 pm

Any help would be welcome.

After working away from home for several week, I returned to a flat battery.

From there I removed the battery, recharged the battery and left the battery for several days on a battery conditioner.

Checked the fuses, re-synchronised the transmitters, and attempted to reset the pin(I think I have completed this correctly).

The transmitters appear to be working, but the car won't start. The lights come on on the dash, the rev counter raises slightly but there is no sound of the petrol pump kicking in and the engine doesn't crank. Also the MIL light stays illuminated.

Tearing my hair out.

I'm hoping its something simple I've missed. :cheers
S2 Titanium 111r
125 Rotax Kart

User avatar
tut
Barefoot Ninja
Posts: 22975
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 5:53 pm
Location: Tut End, Glen of Newmill

Re: Car not starting after flat battery.

Post by tut » Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:58 pm

Simplest first, check the fuel pump fuse.

tut

User avatar
kerryxeg
Posts: 1035
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:15 pm
Location: Aberdeen

Re: Car not starting after flat battery.

Post by kerryxeg » Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:09 pm

Sounds similar to mine. Robin suggested that the alarm backup battery may also have discharged. So it may need some time with the recharged battery trickling to the alarm battery before you can restart it.

I thought this sounded very likely, but I've not got around to trying it out.

Kerry

User avatar
robin
Jedi Master
Posts: 10546
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:39 pm

Re: Car not starting after flat battery.

Post by robin » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:10 pm

It does sound like an immobiliser issue, though the MIL may not be related to that ... anyway I wouldn't worry about the MIL as it has nothing to do with fuel pump/cranking.

We can make the car start bypassing the immob if required (not possible on S1 without some other hackery, but easy enough on the S2).

It does mean removing the plastic cover on the bulkhead behind the seats - I think you may need to remove the pax seat - I've not tried to do it without removing the seat but it might be possible? Anyway if after some time on the charger or a charged battery in the car you cannot get it to start, this is the place to look next.

It's also worth checking the fuses, particularly the ones in next to the ECU. You need to remove the carpet in the boot on the pax side (this requires you to pfaff about with the boot lid stay and some poppers). Then undo the two M8 bolts - either 13mm heads or cap heads. Now you'll notice that the ECU cover in the engine bay is loose and you can remove it. This requires violence and is a PITA. It doesn't come out easily. Now on the pax side of the ECU are four fuse holders though only two are populated. Check both of them. One controls the fuel pump, the other the start/immobiliser ....

Cheers,
Robin
I is in your loomz nibblin ur wirez
#bemoretut

Andym67
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:07 pm
Location: Glasgow (city of)

Re: Car not starting after flat battery.

Post by Andym67 » Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:21 pm

Thanks for all the help so far, Tut, Kerry and Robin.

The latest update: I left the car with the fully charged battery in for a few days. I then tried to start the car and all went well(at first). The car started sounded a bit rough, so left it running for 15-20mins. No problems, sounded a bit healthier. I then decided to give her a run. MIL light then came on again, flash and stayed on intermittently.

I then returned to the house and called the AA(both of them). When the patrol man arrived, he asked me to start the car. Original fault occurred: No starting, alarm Buzzing flashing randomly, mostly 4 buzz/flashes. AA checked battery/fuses/Relays, but no relays behind bulkhead/reset the key fob and checked for strength of signal. All good, but he was only getting 4v to the starter indicating the immobiliser circuit.

The car is a 2003 S2 with a cobra alarm.

Again any help would be much appreciated.

Cheers,

Andy.
S2 Titanium 111r
125 Rotax Kart

User avatar
robin
Jedi Master
Posts: 10546
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:39 pm

Re: Car not starting after flat battery.

Post by robin » Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:40 pm

The immobiliser relay is behind the plastic bulkhead inside the cabin behind the pax seat - did he remove that big piece of plastic to gain access? If not, I don't know how he can know the immobiliser isn't there. It doesn't look like a normal automotive relay, though, just a box with about 20 (probably) black wires running into it.

[edited to add, at least this is where it was on the one S2 I ever saw it on - there might be a loom change that relocated it?]

The rough running is just the ECU and will go away once it's done enough miles and the battery hasn't gone flat in the meanwhile (the ECU remembers stuff and this gets forgotten when the battery is disconnected or goes flat).

Even if it doesn't go away, the rough running has nothing to do with the non start which is either an immobiliser problem or perhaps a bad earth issue.

If neither the starter nor the fuel pump priming works then it is an immobiliser issue pound to a penny. There is the possibility of a MFRU failure too, but less likely to cause both these symptoms together so reliably.

To be sure, turn the ignition off, remove key and wait for 30 seconds or so (until the red light starts to blink on the dash board). Now do this in the sequence I have written:

Press the fob to turn off the blinking alarm/immob light.

Insert key and turn to run position (i.e. just before the crank position).

You should hear a relay click and then 3-5 seconds later you should hear a second, quieter relay clonk. If the immobiliser is working OK you won't hear the relay clonks because the fuel pump priming will be too loud.

If you hear the fuel pump, the immobiliser is (partially) working.

If you don't hear the fuel pump but you do hear the relays clonk twice then the immobiliser is probably at fault.

If you don't hear the relays try to repeat the experiment with somebody else operating the immob fob and key whilst you have your ear close to (but not inside ;-)) the engine bay. This is because the relay sounds might be too quiet to hear, depending on ambient noise.

If you really don't hear the relays clonk then the MFRU might be at fault or the two fuses next to the ECU.

If you do hear the relays clonk but no fuel pump prime or cranking then try this:

Car in neutral, handbrake on, ignition off (key can be in your pocket if you like).

Identify the starter and look at it from the back of the starter (i.e. with you standing on the kerb side looking into the engine bay).

Remove the wire from the spade terminal at the bottom of the starter back plate (6 o'clock if it were a clock face).

Get a length of wire and touch it from the spade terminal sticking out the back of the starter to the stud with a couple of fat wires on it at 3 o'clock. The starter should crank the engine over at this point, regardless of immobiliser setting.

Next repeat this with the ignition on and immob cleared. It probably won't start up because the fuel pump isn't running, but worth trying.

Now we can prove it's the immobiliser by removing the plastic cover behind the seats to reveal the immobiliser relay and temporarily bypass it with two bits of wire. If you want to do that, let me know ...
I is in your loomz nibblin ur wirez
#bemoretut

Andym67
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:07 pm
Location: Glasgow (city of)

Re: Car not starting after flat battery.

Post by Andym67 » Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:51 pm

I think I'll have to try and bypass the immobiliser as the AA seems to have had the the engine cranking over while in the back and I was turning the ignition off and on for him.

Cheers.
S2 Titanium 111r
125 Rotax Kart

User avatar
robin
Jedi Master
Posts: 10546
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:39 pm

Re: Car not starting after flat battery.

Post by robin » Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:28 pm

OK, well this is the page for your car, I think:

http://www.deroure.com/diagrams.asp?TBL ... 0&ST=&SC=0

The thing labelled 1/2/4 is the chappy and the manual says:

"Immobiliser Module: Mounted on left hand end of cabin rear bulkhead. Accessible after removal of cabin rear corner trim panel."

So probably not behind the big bit of plastic I was pointing you at - sorry!

Anyway, if you can work out how to gain access to this beast then you'll see it has a 12 pin connector (not 20 - my memory is getting worse!) and if you get this far and take a photograph of the connector removed I'll show you which wires to connect together to bypass the immobiliser function.

Cheers,
Robin
I is in your loomz nibblin ur wirez
#bemoretut

Andym67
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:07 pm
Location: Glasgow (city of)

Re: Car not starting after flat battery.

Post by Andym67 » Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:13 pm

Robin, I think you were right the first time. There is no cabin rear corner trim panel in my car, that is unless my eyesight is going with my mind.

However I think we may not need to access the relay after all, after some more fiddling around(and noticing the AA patrol man has wrenched off the cover for the ECU and fuses kindly tearing off the tabs instead of unscrewing them leaving me with a flapping about cover)dropping a fuse(running down to the motor factor's to replace said fuse) I noticed the connector into the ECU was loose.

Someone must have been in there before, as there is a sliding clip which latches to hold the connector securely. I therefore secured the connector into the ECU properly and the car now starts and runs, hopefully that has been the problem all along.

I would really like to thank you for your assistance with this, as you have gone out your way and taken a fair bit of time helping me out. I have learned quite a bit from you along the way and hope this makes you feel like you've not wasted your time completely.

I owe you a good few drinks for your assistance.

Hopefully meet you in person a some point on a meet or track day.

Cheers,

Andy.
S2 Titanium 111r
125 Rotax Kart

User avatar
robin
Jedi Master
Posts: 10546
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:39 pm

Re: Car not starting after flat battery.

Post by robin » Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:04 pm

Glad it's running - always happy to help.

The ECU has two connectors - one large one and one small one.

The small one would prevent the fuel pump from running if disconnected.

The large one wouldn't prevent either the fuel pump running or the starter cranking.

So your starter not turning was not caused by the loose ECU plug.

The start/immobiliser fuse is the most likely culprit, especially if it's the one the AA man left lying.

You need to make good the ECU cover. The plugs look watertight but they are not. If you get water onto the ECU plugs you will eventually have a failed ECU - there is lots of water in the engine bay when it's raining. Depending on how it's broken you might be able to repair with epoxy and some sheet material. The correct assembly is to have the screws coming through the boot wall then the plastic cover then the ECU back plate so when the screws are tightened up the plastic cover is pinched between the ECU back plate and the boot wall.

If it were me I would order a new one from MMC.

I would also complain to the AA about the quality of this guy's work - I've heard generally good stuff about the AA road side guys and have nothing but praise for the few RAC guys I've called out over the years - I'm sure the AA will look into your complaint (maybe not to the point of compensation, but that's not really the point).

Cheers,
Robin
I is in your loomz nibblin ur wirez
#bemoretut

Andym67
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:07 pm
Location: Glasgow (city of)

Re: Car not starting after flat battery.

Post by Andym67 » Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:59 pm

That's very peculiar then, It was me that dropped the fuse yesterday. I had only visually checked the fuse and was going to continuity check it, but managed to lose it before I had the opportunity.

To be fair the AA patrol man was quite good, he put in a good bit of effort and time to try and resolve the problem. The only problem was the snapped cover and not getting the car to start(I can't really blame him for that as no doubt he's not an auto electrician).

I've temporally fixed the cover was duct tape and contacted the AA, but will take your advice and get on to MMC and get a cover ordered up.

Cheers again,

Andy.
S2 Titanium 111r
125 Rotax Kart

User avatar
robin
Jedi Master
Posts: 10546
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:39 pm

Re: Car not starting after flat battery.

Post by robin » Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:20 pm

The ECUs are expensive ... so worth fixing one way or the other :-)
I is in your loomz nibblin ur wirez
#bemoretut

colintinto
Posts: 220
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:58 pm

Re: Car not starting after flat battery.

Post by colintinto » Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:50 pm

This thread saved me yesterday too.

Car wouldn't start. Nothing obvious, battery ok, 13.4 volts, only dropping to 12.7 with all lights etc. on.

Fuel pump primed, but not a click to try and start.

Checked the fuses in the front, all fine, although did find the start of a mouse nest under the wiper motor, luckily no sign of damage!

Checked this thread and read about the fuses next to the ECU - got into them with some skin left on my knuckles, and right enough, one of the 20amp fuses had gone. Replaced it, and started fine again.

Not sure what caused the fuse to blow. Will be carrying a spare from now on though!

Colin
Tesla is coming...
2007 Volvo XC90 (everything fits inc. kitchen sink spec)
2012 BMW X1

Post Reply