Why I don't like [what gets done to] the Rover K series and

[KingK_series]

mmm, right you've got me asking.

How did you come to that conclusion regarding crank dynamics looking at a picture ?, can you expand on the bad design.

old fashioned crude thinking put oil into the bearing, some people thought - if you made holes at 180 deg opposite it would help, - such thinking is exhibited here above or on the twin breakouts on the stock Honda k20 crank [this argument was rehearsed on the Honda thread]


modern thinking, F1 practice realised that if you pump the oil out under the rod just before the piston rises to the point where ignition occurs you will have if you like a 'cushion 'of oil just below the rod as the charge is fired, this acts as a damper on the combustion forces acting on the crank and rod and reduces fatigue

it is a good idea, a modern design feature common on well designed cranks with a motorsport leaning, it works, - the feature is present on OEM K series cranks, but absent from this crude aftermarket crank and OEM Honda.

[KingK_series]

And this is what a really badly designed aftermarket steel crank looks like when the design issues the engineer [?] addressed were designed badly, and the important issue was not addressed at all -

[KingK_series]

Here's another thing..... all the really cheap non OEM parts flooding the market, and worse........ the tuners using these chjeap parts without thought or reflection.


here three valve stem oil seals.

On the extreme left a rubbish non OEM seal fitted by one of the "names" in the K series tuning world, it has no proper seal lip on the inside of the seal hole - result this engine and three others all from the same "K tuner" that I have heards about in the last few weeks - all piddling oil into the cylinders from new and consequently failing MOTs.


Middle a completely different non OEM seal that I foolishly bought off ebay last week to help one of the above disappointed owners out, that has a lip but is rubbish and gone with the other 15 straight into the bin.


Finally extreme right, an OEM seal with the Rover designed seal lip design.



and here is a close up of the offending non OEM seal with it's straight edge rather than profiled lip

[sanderb]

A friend supplied me these to put in his VVC head I had ported and flowed. Another issue with these is the springs split easily ending up somewhere in the engine and making the seal even more useless. All 16 went into the bin.

[KingK_series]

A friend supplied me these to put in his VVC head I had ported and flowed. Another issue with these is the springs split easily ending up somewhere in the engine and making the seal even more useless. All 16 went into the bin.

I have have heard of or had several people ask about oiling problems in the last few weeks, there are undoubtedly many cheaply made poor quality parts about now - seals, water pumps, liners, and gaskets to add to head gaskets for which there have always be a plethora of non OEM parts - some purporting to be better than OEM and even a cure for so called "HGF" that will give inadequate service or fail in service.

Worse some of the people building "tuned" engines are either supplying these parts or building them into engines either carelessly or thoughtlessly, with the consequences I described above.

I believe it really IS important for an engine builder to TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for every part or process he or she builds into an engine, especially a tuned engine if it is being sold as such.

[KingK_series]

And here's a pic of 2 exhaust valves



top the crud oil laden valve that came from the head built by the "tuner" who fitted the non OEM vale stem oil seals [note said seals have a different colour elastomer - so could not possibly be mistaken for an OEM seal, no matter who the supplier was - ie if the said engine builder actually cared about what he was doing he could question the supplier and refrain from using what is obviously a cheap badly designed non OEM manufacture, design or quality part] that had run in an engine for less than a year, and done approx 5000 miles - obviously leaking oil!

bottom an exhaust valve out of an engine that had failed because the rad fan failed and engine cooked in traffic, but that had done 65,000 miles. Note typical high mileage valve seat damage. However valve stem and back is clear of the greasy oily crud - why ? because the OEM engine had OEM valve stem seals fitted at the factory.

[dirkpitt]

Back to the poor quality aftermarket parts

- this after a very low mileage, pitting and loss of material on several but not all the lobes on both shafts



this happens because of poor quality casting - I have NEVER seen this on OE shafts -

from what I can see the pitting looks like a form of corrosion….possibly crevice corrosion! Which occurs between close fitted surfaces….anywhere the metal is restricted of forming a protective surface….

[Rich H]

It's common on Porsche 924 camshafts. It looks like spalling of the surface caused by fatigue.
Loads of tiny fatigue cracks form under the surface and slowly join up to make the surface fall off, which exacerbates the problem.
Got a bearing in my drawer with exactly the same problem. In a bearing is due to overload or too much preload.

For those who like technical stuff page 28:
http://www.skf.com/files/099926.pdf

I'd suggest in that case it was the camshaft was incorrectly heat treated/coated perhaps?

[dirkpitt]

Another possibility could be corrosion occurring under the surface with in the bounders of the dendrites or crystals, themselves.
Intergranular corrosion due to microscopic difference in the metal structure and composition.....

[Rich H]

Would that not occur everywhere rather than the highly loaded cam tip?

[KingK_series]

Would that not occur everywhere rather than the highly loaded cam tip?

I concur, and the failure happened on several lobes but not all, I've seen it on several cams now all aftermarket, but never OEM.

[sanderb]

the honda K20 and Rover K water pumps next to each other, both cheap poor designs, that in the Rover's case significantly contributes to the temp gradient issues that cause "HGF"

Where do I get an affordable, better than OEM, pump for my VGK 1.9 block ?

I know there are cast versions of the impellor. I've had one from Motobuild on my 190bhp VVC. This had a radius on the cambelt wheel which clearly increased wear on the cambelt in this particular area.

I've found another type in the 1.8i Elise I've just bought, something like this:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Land-Rover-Fr ... 3cc84d836c
It seems the impellor is a better design but it still doesn't look quite right to me. It was relatively new but I could feel more friction from the shaft seal than I like/am used to. Replaced it for an OEM pump just to be sure.

Any suggestions are welkom.

[KingK_series]

the honda K20 and Rover K water pumps next to each other, both cheap poor designs, that in the Rover's case significantly contributes to the temp gradient issues that cause "HGF"

Where do I get an affordable, better than OEM, pump for my VGK 1.9 block ?

I know there are cast versions of the impellor. I've had one from Motobuild on my 190bhp VVC. This had a radius on the cambelt wheel which clearly increased wear on the cambelt in this particular area.

I've found another type in the 1.8i Elise I've just bought, something like this:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Land-Rover-Fr ... 3cc84d836c
It seems the impellor is a better design but it still doesn't look quite right to me. It was relatively new but I could feel more friction from the shaft seal than I like/am used to. Replaced it for an OEM pump just to be sure.

Any suggestions are welkom.

There isn't one commercially available

the link shows a pump which is beeter [closed back] but there is not enough gap between the bearing boss and the inner blade edge, that will cause cavitation

in addition it is still running at 1:1 crank speed which is way too fast and means even a really carefully designed impellor will cavitate at 8000rpm, the OEM pump only works 2-4000 rpm, above that it just cavitates like mad.

Vicente and others are asking for a pump, but I am really against supplying parts because people do just the most incredible things......... and it's just not worth the greif

I may, possibly..... have'nt decided yet supply a few oem based pumps to fit to his builds, but that only.

[hiscot]

" in addition it is still running at 1:1 crank speed which is way too fast and means even a really carefully designed impellor will cavitate at 8000rpm, the OEM pump only works 2-4000 rpm, above that it just cavitates like mad."
I see in Japan you can get a larger pulley to press onto the pump , in order to alter the 1:1 ratio for higher rpm engines

[KingK_series]

" in addition it is still running at 1:1 crank speed which is way too fast and means even a really carefully designed impellor will cavitate at 8000rpm, the OEM pump only works 2-4000 rpm, above that it just cavitates like mad."
I see in Japan you can get a larger pulley to press onto the pump , in order to alter the 1:1 ratio for higher rpm engines

Not sure about that Bob

to do this reliably it has to be properly engineered with correctly cut pulley teeth, and a revised engineered belt/ tensioner.

Doing these things so they work and are reliable needs thought and serious engineering, something pretty uncommon in the way K has been handled to date