S2 Starting issues continued...

[colintinto]

Previously posted about my car not starting as it should - turn the key and it just clicks the solenoid. Will do this a few times, and then start.

Battery has been tested and is fine.

Noticed something new today - it seems to behave itself fine if the alarm has been on.

So drive car, stop, alarm switched on. Left for a while, alarm off, started perfect first time. And it did this throughout the day - didn't 'click click' once.

I don't often use the alarm. My normal starting sequence would be:

Key in, turn all the way to running position. Press Keyfob to disable immoboliser. Turn key to start position (and this is where it sometimes clicks)

Also it seems that turning the key all the way off, then right back to Starting position it will start fine.

So it's almost as if the immobiliser isn't turning off completely, and it's letting power to the solenoid but not to the starter?

Anyone?

[robin]

Not possible as you've described, I am afraid.

The immobilisation on the S2 elise consists of two switches that are controlled by the alarm/immob electronics. The first switch cuts the fuel pump. The second switch cuts the starter solenoid. However the solenoid itself is too heavy to be driven directly by the key switch. So there is an extra relay in the circuit which goes something like:

key start position switch -> MFRU start relay -> immob switch -> solenoid -> actual starter motor.

So the click you are hearing could well be the MFRU start relay rather than the solenoid, which is more of a clonk than a click. In which case the immob could be involved in the way you describe above.

If your immobiliser is playing up you could tell this if you adopted a slightly different start sequence:

Clear alarm/immob.
Key to run position.
Listen for Bzzz of fuel pump priming (you won't get this if you reverse the first two steps, possibly).
Key to start position.
Listen for clicks, clonks and starter turning.

You'll only get the Bzzz if the ignition has been off for approx 30s or more.

If you don't get the Bzz and it goes click but doesn't start then your immob is likely to be gubbed.

If you always get the Bzzz but sometimes it starts and sometimes it doesn't then it's less likely to be the immob and more likely to be, e.g., the MFRU.

If you can get it into a state where having disarmed the alarm/immob and the key is in the run position flicking to start always makes it click (i.e. you go run->start ("click")->run->start ("click") ....) then if you leave the key in the run position, open the boot (need spare key on S2). Now we're going to hotwire the starter. To do this, identify the starter motor (under air intake tubing, more or less). Look at the back of the solenoid - you'll see a small gauge wire running to a spade terminal at the 6 o'clock position and a big bundle of fat wires running to the stud at the 3 o'clock position. Pull the spade terminal wire off and using a handy bit of wire (mains earth cable in the green/yellow plastic is good for this) short from the big bundle of wires to the spade terminal at the bottom. This should engage the starter and make the engine start. Assuming it does, go back into the car and stall the engine without turning the key off - i.e. handbrake+footbrake + 5th gear + clutch up. Now put it back in neutral and turn the key to the start position - does it click or does it start?

Cheers,
Robin

[mac]

Robin,

Mine is doing the same - not checked the alarm part yet.

It doesn't sound for the life of it as a solenoid clunk rather than a relay click.

It's like the inertia part of the starter is functioning and the cog is being thrown into the starter ring but the motor isn't engaging so it's not turning the engine.

[colintinto]

Continues to behave today when using the alarm.

I do get the bzzz of the fuel pump, even if it then goes on to click (or clunk... not sure yet) and not start.

[robin]

Well, that is the solenoid ... the solenoid has two functions that happen as a result of a single movement. The MFRU starter relay ("click") allows current to flow through the solenoid coil ("clonk"). The solenoid bolt is then moved as a result of the electromagnetic force created by the current in the coil. The bolt moves forwards and joins two contacts together (like a massive relay) that allow current to flow through the DC motor and also moves a lever that engages the shaft of the motor with the starting gear.

As described above you can determine whether or not your starter (solenoid + DC motor) works at any time, ignition on or off, alarm on or off - put in neutral and short out as above - if your starter+solenoid is working it'll turn the engine over - if it's not then you'll either hear a "clunk" and nothing else or you won't even hear the "clunk".

You can also quickly decide whether the click/clonk sound you're hearing is or isn't coming from the starter. Simply remove the wire from the spade terminal at the base of the solenoid.and then try to start the engine as normal with the ignition key. If you can still hear the same click then the noise you're hearing is the MFRU. If the sound changes as a result of removing the wire then the sound you heard before was coming from the starter.

Does that make sense?

Cheers,
Robin

[robin]

I do get the bzzz of the fuel pump, even if it then goes on to click (or clunk... not sure yet) and not start.

OK, so the immob is commanding the immob relay to allow the engine to run. So when it next goes clunk/click see my response to Mac above ...

Cheers,
Robin

[mac]

I'll have a play around this weekend when I get home

[DJ]

Interesting this issue has returned on my old car after a 4 year absence

Done a search - see my thread from May 2008. I never got to the bottom of it at the time and after a week or so the issue went away.

http://www.scottishelises.com/phpbb/vie ... ce#p183879

[AiD]

Has anyone ever found a definitive answer to the cause of this issue?
It seems to be quite common from the searching I’ve done but there never seems to be a consistent resolution.

My Elise has been intermittently starting for a while until yesterday when it refused to start. My MFRU should be ok as it is a fairly new unit (and dry) so I tapped the started motor with a hammer and ta-da, it started (on second attempt)!

Although from that, my symptoms seem to correspond to a burnt out starter motor from the description listed on this;

http://www.elise-shop.com/starter-motor ... 15038.html

[robin]

Hi,

Not so much burnt out as sticky. Ultimately replacing the starter may cure the problem. If you fancy stripping it down you might be able to make it better, but in the long run I feel a part exchange starter from reasonable motor factors (it should be the same as the MGF part) is the most cost effective solution.

Oh, also it could be the wiring on the back of the starter is not tight/not making good contact - especially the thinner wire that goes to a spade terminal all by itself.

Cheers,
Robin

P.S. As you're down the road from me, if it does this fairly consistently you could give me a call next time it happens and I'll come take a look (before you hit it with a hammer ).