The Shugmobile Conversion Thread

Post by **Shug** » Mon May 01, 2006 11:39 am

robin wrote:
Shug wrote:550 notes...

Right - received the Emerald back and there is still the problem. Was chatting to Lawrence on Saturday and he mentioned that the MFRU is possibly different on the VVC engine. Rather nievely, I thought they were all the same. Possible cause? I'm gonna try and get a hold of Karl ASAP and find out (I take it they will be shut today though...)
According to the parts manual (which knows about 111s) the MFRU is the same part on all cars. The loom may of course be different in some subtle respect.

The MFRU contains relays for:

Start Relay (enables cranking)
Fuel Pump Relay (enables fuel pump)
"Main" Relay (basically most of the current that is used for the MEMS, sensors, injectors, ignition).
Lambda Heater Relay (duh).

So of these you know #1 and #2 deffo do the right thing - it cranks and the fuel pump runs now and then. #4, who cares, it won't matter right now, but in any case you can easily test it by disconnecting the lambda connector and checking for +12v on pin 4 - pin 3 is black and will be ground. I think pin 4 will be Blue and Red (UR) - cannot remember what colour U is ... pins 1 and 2 go to the MEMS.

#3 Will provide +12v to one side of each coil pack plus to each fuel injector. When the ECU isn't trying to drive these signals, the other side will also appear at +12v (there is no voltage drop across the coils because there is no current flowing through them).

I think you have already confirmed that each coil & injector is receiving +12v?

So I don't think the MFRU can be the problem.

I would also check that the TPS sees +5v (IIRC) on pin 3 (pink and black, maybe?).

Cheers,
Robin

Thanks Robin. I've just had a phone call from David (who I mentioned this to last night) who's just been rooting through the diagrams and says exactly what you've said there....

Blind alley no. 1367... Trying to get 5 mins to call Karl, but I'm not sure they will be in today.

Sanjøy · Post by **Sanjøy** » Mon May 01, 2006 11:58 am

Double dare you to do a Tut and call it in to AA Parts & Labour, chuck all the bitsin the engine bay and say "It just stopped working".

robin · Post by **robin** » Mon May 01, 2006 9:51 pm

Shug,

It might be worth recapping exactly what we do know works as I think you have covered 99% of it already (in triplicate!). I think you may need to scope each signal at the ECU and make sure it's doing what it should be while cranking and then double check each signal against the emerald pin out (as appropriate for the VVC-variant, obviously).

I also wonder whether you have the correct s/w on your laptop - the report you gave of it being a bit vague on whether or not the immobiliser circuit is disabled made me wonder. It is possible that the programming s/w needs to be version matched with the s/w on the ECU.

You've probably checked that with Karl already ... just thinking out aloud.

Cheers,
Robin

Post by **Shug** » Tue May 02, 2006 9:35 am

Gonna try and speak to Karl today, but to recap:

Tested:

Immobiliser signals at ECU plug (correct pin!) Signals change when mobilised, immobilised and ign off.

With immob off, pump primes, starter runs and +12v across injectors & coils.

Crank & cam position sensors report good readings (at ECU plug & at sensor) when engine is cranking.

Software version is for VVC engine - has screens for additional sensor setups, coil, injector and VVC mech timing that don't appear in the standard software.

Symptoms:

ECU screen in emerald always reports immobiliser deactivated, despite checking that immobiliser is active. Bypassing immobiliser in software has no effect on outputs from ECU - ECU immobilise circuit re-set and codes re-learned several times, as per specific instructions from Karl.

Engine churns with no outputs at all to injectors or coils (checked with test lights & multimeter on loom plugs) This is whether the immobiliser is bypassed in the ECU or not. Immobliser still operates on fuel pump and starter solenoid, as you'd expect.

Have tried (in desparation) trying to get any outputs with the crank position sensor bypassed & injectors set to batch fire in software. No difference...

For it to be a wiring fault - I'd have had to f**k up every single injector driver and coil driver, whilst getting every sensor wire correct. Not actually sure that's possible! It's all been checked anyway.

Hopefully Karl will have an answer....

mckeann · Post by **mckeann** » Tue May 02, 2006 9:43 am

<unhelpful> hmmmm, maybe thats why it was for sale so cheap mate

Post by **Shug** » Tue May 02, 2006 9:51 am

mckeann wrote:<unhelpful> hmmmm, maybe thats why it was for sale so cheap mate <unhelpful>

The engine is doing the right things, fcukwit.... Although it's a bit much asking you to understand anything technical eh?

/touchy

mckeann · Post by **mckeann** » Tue May 02, 2006 10:17 am

very touchy. was only on a windup mate. i obviously hope you sort it. i'd offer to help but you really dont want that

on a side note, the honda haters will be unhappy to hear that i fixed my driveshaft problems with a £1.28 circlip, that i didnt even pay for.

Post by **Shug** » Tue May 02, 2006 10:19 am

mckeann wrote:very touchy. was only on a windup mate. i obviously hope you sort it. i'd offer to help but you really dont want that

on a side note, the honda haters will be unhappy to hear that i fixed my driveshaft problems with a £1.28 circlip, that i didnt even pay for.

Sorry - you couldn't see the tongue wedged in my cheek as I typed - you've got far worse off of me, with that Linda

As I said on SE1, genuinely glad if it was a simple thing. I currently know about engine frustrations and the tether is actually running a little short....

mckeann · Post by **mckeann** » Tue May 02, 2006 10:27 am

seems to be all fixed, fingers crossed. dont need to carry about 3 litres of gearbox oil, a jack, and a tool kit anymore. thank fcuk.

it was certainly bloody quick at rockingham. going to brands hatch 2mrw so see how it goes there. cannae wait

robin · Post by **robin** » Tue May 02, 2006 1:46 pm

Shug wrote:
Engine churns with no outputs at all to injectors or coils (checked with test lights & multimeter on loom plugs) This is whether the immobiliser is bypassed in the ECU or not. Immobliser still operates on fuel pump and starter solenoid, as you'd expect.

Hopefully Karl will have an answer....

Just to clarify your injector/coil drive tests. With the ignition on, but the engine not cranking you should see +12v on one side of the injector (relative to, say, the engine block) and the other side should be open circuit. When cranking with the multimeter connected across both terminals of the injector connection you should see open circuit (0v) and 12v alternating as the ECU fires. You cannot measure the ECU drive relative to ground as it switches from open circuit to ground anyway. I am sure you knew all that, but just wanted to be 100% sure.

I might try monitoring pin 29 of the M3DK with a scope while cranking and the loom attached to the engine - if you see a >0.1V voltage on there at any point it means that the earth isn't good enough. However, unless you see spikes of >1V the chances are that it would at least sort of work.

The immobiliser point requires Karl's help I feel. Like you, I would disable the ECU-immobilisation all together. You have done that, but it's not clear to me that the PC s/w is acknowledging that fact.

Can the ECU still run in non-VVC mode? If so I would be inclined to install it in a friendly elise and see whether it works any better there, and also what the immobiliser display part reads too ...

Do you want me to come over and have a look one evening later this week - the Exige needs a run

Cheers,
Robin

Post by **Shug** » Tue May 02, 2006 1:50 pm

robin wrote:
Shug wrote:
Engine churns with no outputs at all to injectors or coils (checked with test lights & multimeter on loom plugs) This is whether the immobiliser is bypassed in the ECU or not. Immobliser still operates on fuel pump and starter solenoid, as you'd expect.

Hopefully Karl will have an answer....
Just to clarify your injector/coil drive tests. With the ignition on, but the engine not cranking you should see +12v on one side of the injector (relative to, say, the engine block) and the other side should be open circuit. When cranking with the multimeter connected across both terminals of the injector connection you should see open circuit (0v) and 12v alternating as the ECU fires. You cannot measure the ECU drive relative to ground as it switches from open circuit to ground anyway. I am sure you knew all that, but just wanted to be 100% sure.

I might try monitoring pin 29 of the M3DK with a scope while cranking and the loom attached to the engine - if you see a >0.1V voltage on there at any point it means that the earth isn't good enough. However, unless you see spikes of >1V the chances are that it would at least sort of work.

The immobiliser point requires Karl's help I feel. Like you, I would disable the ECU-immobilisation all together. You have done that, but it's not clear to me that the PC s/w is acknowledging that fact.

Can the ECU still run in non-VVC mode? If so I would be inclined to install it in a friendly elise and see whether it works any better there, and also what the immobiliser display part reads too ...

Do you want me to come over and have a look one evening later this week - the Exige needs a run

Cheers,
Robin

Thanks for clarifying the Injector stuff - as I understand it, that's what's been checked.... We checked continuity on the ECU earth, just not voltage....

If you're free tonight, I think I'm going to pop up and have a swear....

Shug

robin · Post by **robin** » Tue May 02, 2006 4:28 pm

I wasn't but now am - give me a call on 07973 391 393 - the Rover dealer has come up with excuse #2 for not having my parts - Grrr.

Cheers,
Robin

Post by **Shug** » Tue May 02, 2006 4:29 pm

Cheers Robin - will call when I'm out of work - I'll PM the location, 'cos I won't be near a PC after work....

Post by **Shug** » Wed May 03, 2006 9:42 am

Progress!!!

Right, things appear to be making a bit more sense now.... The ECU is providing the correct signals it would seem and we are finally getting some sorts of output (we have sparks!)

Only downside is that, despite getting what look like the correct signals, the injectors are not firing when connected to the ECU - and they do work, because we tested them (quoth Robin: "you don't mind if I flood it do you?")

Many thanks to Robin for the trek over and for staying as late as you did - he left about 11.30, so gawd knows how long it would have taken him to get back to Edinburgh from Hambo's.... I know I got in the door after 12.30.

Night off tonight, but we'll be back at it on Thursday - nearly there! Robin's actually of the opinion that it'll just inexplicably fire, now that we've had it in bits testing everything. I'll also pop an email to Karl with our progress, just to see if he's come across our current symptoms before and he can just advise a really obvious fix.

I can see light at the end of the tunnel

Oh, and Robin - soz if I was a little less than my usual self last night, beginning to lose my sense of humour with this bloody thing

robin · Post by **robin** » Wed May 03, 2006 4:15 pm

Shug wrote:Progress!!!
...
Oh, and Robin - soz if I was a little less than my usual self last night, beginning to lose my sense of humour with this bloody thing

No sweat - was a laugh - I like a challenge

I read the one liner in the manual about the fuel pump.

The fuel pump relay (and hence the fuel pump) should get run in the first instance by the ECU for 3s-ish to charge the system. Then it times out and switches off. Then when cranking it should re-start the fuel pump, and obviously leave it running if the engine catches.

Lawrence recalled having taken an MFRU apart and seeing links between the relays in it and thought this might be an issue ... it may be that in some variants of the car the fuel pump relay is activated whenever the cranking relay is activated via some cunning mechanism inside the MFRU and that the ECU only activates the fuel pump when the engine is actually running.

In any case I think it's well worth running with the topless MFRU and making sure the fuel pump relay gets activated during cranking.

Remember - it's just the laws of physics

Cheers,
Robin