Was Bloody car. Becoming "do it once.."

[fd]

Unless it's losing water you haven't said anything that could not be attributed to cold weather . . .

Fd

[pete]

It may not be a question of it being fixed properly. This wouldn't be the first car on the list that has been through all the work of getting head gasket replaced and everything else checked out, only to fail again and again and again.

It does sound like coolant->combustion chamber ingress; not cranking will be down to hydraulic action of coolant in the bore - here's hoping there hasn't been knock on damage to piston, liner or rods.

There are other causes of this besides HGF, e.g. porous head, cracked liner, ...

Whatever, it won't likely be cheap - sorry

Cheers,
Robin

Well you're a bundle of laughs (shooting the messenger faction).
Cracked what? Liner? Can I test the porosity of the head (that seems to ring a bell from somewhere)?

When the gasket failed in the summer I toyed with the idea of making the car go faster but having spoken to KiwiRog and taken advice on here (partly from your good self) I decided not to bother. Partly due to the time scales and I suppose I kind of had a bit of a think about what the car was, was it a sportscar or was it a track toy. And it's a sportscar, it's not a track toy.
I'm not sure where I go from here though, you seem to be suggesting this isn't going to be easy to fix permanently. Those others who have had repeated failures have presumably been doing all the right things to fix it too, they've just found it really hard to fix.

Would it be right to think that you are suggesting it's going to be off the road for a while now? I'm seriously considering another car which will release the pressure to get it fixed to make sure it's done properly.

Ho hum. At least it's winter...

[pete]

Unless it's losing water you haven't said anything that could not be attributed to cold weather . . .

Fd

I much prefer your version fd than Robin's but I have a feeling in my water... Also I use the car every day and it's never done this before... OK it's been a bit reluctant to start very occasionally but this is different...

[mac]

Time for the ST mate - let a tin top take the strain and leave the elise as a driving pleasure.


Also means that things like this can be fixed in a timescale that suits your pocket or can be protracted so that you have time to finance and source the best solution.



Mac

[robin]

Fd's right that there is a chance it isn't broken at all ... but I'm assuming it'll lose coolant and probably overheat also. I would try and get it tested rather than run it lots trying to prove it will lose coolant or overheat.

You can test the head for porosity by pressure testing it, but that has been shown to be unreliable (whether it's the theory or the method employed I don't know).

What you need to do is:

(a) confirm cooant->combustion chamber leak (block tester sniffing in the coolant tank should do this) (EDIT: if you're getting coolant->oil leak only then you still need to remove the head I think).
(b) remove cylinder head and inspect head face, gasket and liner heights:
* If it's an elastomer type gasket (shiny metal gasket with orange rubbery sealant around the perimeter and some of the holes) then check to see if any of the elastomer has torn/come away thus making a coolant->oil path - this would give you mayo but no hydraulic action or extra steam.
* If it's a multi-layer metal gasket then you need to check for any point distortions in the metal (i.e little sharp bumps that would indicate some type of grit having been bolted down in the gasket) - again this gives you mayo but no steam or hydraulic action.
(c) Check the combustion chambers to see if one or more of them are "steam cleaned" - this implies coolant has been getting into the clean chamber(s) and means you can narrow your search.
(d) Check the liners are proud of the block by hopefully 4 thou (=~ 0.1mm) but at least something; you don't want them flush or negative. If there is significant difference (i.e. more than 1 thou) between different places on the same liner or between one liner and another, you should seriously consider getting the block decked, especially if the lower liner corresponds to a steam cleaned chamber - Stu can do that.
(e) Check the head for evidence of the fire rings fretting the head face - basically you're looking for indentations in the head surface corresponding to where the head was clamped down on the liners/fire rings - if there is such an indentation, it would give you a coolant->combustion leak and IMHO means it's time to buy a new head. You also need to look for signs of porosity that could allow coolant to get into the chamber (and pressure to escape). Although it's possible to skim a porous head and perhaps cut down to a layer that has no porosity, I don't think you're going to succeed.
(f) If none of the above reveal anything, I would strip out the bottom half of the head and ship it to DVA who will do a rebound hardness test on the metal in the areas that actually matter to tell you if the head is soft (for a one-off failure, this isn't necessarily required as there are so many other potential causes, but for a second unexplained failure, you need to look deeper). Note this is different from a Rockwell hardness test which cannot be used on the relevant places of a cylinder head as you'll destroy it in the process (around the fire rings and between the chamber and the exhaust ports).

Here's hoping if it's anything, it's elastomer failure!

Cheers,
Robin

[pete]

Fd's right that there is a chance it isn't broken at all ... but I'm assuming it'll lose coolant and probably overheat also. I would try and get it tested rather than run it lots trying to prove it will lose coolant or overheat.

You can test the head for porosity by pressure testing it, but that has been shown to be unreliable (whether it's the theory or the method employed I don't know).

What you need to do is:

(a) confirm cooant->combustion chamber leak (block tester sniffing in the coolant tank should do this) (EDIT: if you're getting coolant->oil leak only then you still need to remove the head I think).
(b) remove cylinder head and inspect head face, gasket and liner heights:
* If it's an elastomer type gasket (shiny metal gasket with orange rubbery sealant around the perimeter and some of the holes) then check to see if any of the elastomer has torn/come away thus making a coolant->oil path - this would give you mayo but no hydraulic action or extra steam.
* If it's a multi-layer metal gasket then you need to check for any point distortions in the metal (i.e little sharp bumps that would indicate some type of grit having been bolted down in the gasket) - again this gives you mayo but no steam or hydraulic action.
(c) Check the combustion chambers to see if one or more of them are "steam cleaned" - this implies coolant has been getting into the clean chamber(s) and means you can narrow your search.
(d) Check the liners are proud of the block by hopefully 4 thou (=~ 0.1mm) but at least something; you don't want them flush or negative. If there is significant difference (i.e. more than 1 thou) between different places on the same liner or between one liner and another, you should seriously consider getting the block decked, especially if the lower liner corresponds to a steam cleaned chamber - Stu can do that.
(e) Check the head for evidence of the fire rings fretting the head face - basically you're looking for indentations in the head surface corresponding to where the head was clamped down on the liners/fire rings - if there is such an indentation, it would give you a coolant->combustion leak and IMHO means it's time to buy a new head. You also need to look for signs of porosity that could allow coolant to get into the chamber (and pressure to escape). Although it's possible to skim a porous head and perhaps cut down to a layer that has no porosity, I don't think you're going to succeed.
(f) If none of the above reveal anything, I would strip out the bottom half of the head and ship it to DVA who will do a rebound hardness test on the metal in the areas that actually matter to tell you if the head is soft (for a one-off failure, this isn't necessarily required as there are so many other potential causes, but for a second unexplained failure, you need to look deeper). Note this is different from a Rockwell hardness test which cannot be used on the relevant places of a cylinder head as you'll destroy it in the process (around the fire rings and between the chamber and the exhaust ports).

Here's hoping if it's anything, it's elastomer failure!

Cheers,
Robin

Thanks Robin (I suspect the "I'll buy you a drink line if I ever meet you" is starting to wear a bit thin - I'll start keeping a tally).

My plan is to give it back to Ali with this list... (AA P&L will cover a fair chunk of the labour).

[ABZ-Elise]

If your engine is properly knackerd, this engine was on ebay a few days ago, the auction is finished now but never got any bids. You could try ringing them and see if they've still got it. Thats if it is the same as yours??? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 0314316429

[pete]

If your engine is properly knackerd, this engine was on ebay a few days ago, the auction is finished now but never got any bids. You could try ringing them and see if they've still got it. Thats if it is the same as yours??? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 0314316429

Mine's the VVC engine but thanks for the thought.

(If anyone has a spare VHPD knocking around give me a shout?)

[ABZ-Elise]

So is that one, by the looks of it...i think

[pete]

He doesn't mention it in the advert but it does look the same as mine...

I'll ring him tomorrow...

(How would you find out? He gives the serial number...)

[steve_weegie]

Pete, from the advert photos it's an EU3 VVC unit just like the one in your car

Oh, I still have your xbox "kit" here that i need to drop off If you want me to swing down with my block tester, give me a shout

[pete]

Pete, from the advert photos it's an EU3 VVC unit just like the one in your car

Oh, I still have your xbox "kit" here that i need to drop off If you want me to swing down with my block tester, give me a shout

What's a block tester?

Yep the xbox stuff'd be great but no immediate hurry.

What's the opinion of putting a new motor in it? How would I know if it is any better than the one that is in it (Ok I suppose that may be a stupid question).

Whilst it is out (if I went down this path) anyone know where I can get a cr box from?

[steve_weegie]

A block tester is a chemical sniffer that you put over the coolant tank & will test for gas from the combustion chamber leaking into the coolant. You suck up some of the gas from the coolant tank through a blue liquid, and if the liquid turns yellow / green, you know you've got a combustion gas to coolant head gasket failure. Popping the spark plugs out first to check for coolant seeping into the cylinders would be a good first step too.

After my engine blew up at knockhill, I had a chat with Robin about swapping an ebay engine into my car... Robin steered me away from it, as I could have been swapping one bad engine for another. Different story if you know the engine history however, but you dont want to be throwing good money on bad parts if youy know what i mean... I ended up going down the full rebuild route, specifically making sure that the liner heights were spot on, getting the head hardness tested & fitting the new MLS gasket and land rover bottom oil rail.

Until you pull the thing to bits, its tricky to know what may have caused the failure however... Could be that your engine is 99% ok and rebuilding / machining it until everything is 100% spot on, is the best course of action

Cheers,

Steve

[robin]

The weegie is right ... if you can afford the time to diagnose the fault properly before rushing into buying any replacement parts, you're probably going to make a better value repair.

If you want a CR box you can have the one out of my car and I'll swap for the one from your car ... I would quite like a longer 5th for motorway cruising.

Cheers,
Robin

[pete]

The weegie is right ... if you can afford the time to diagnose the fault properly before rushing into buying any replacement parts, you're probably going to make a better value repair.

If you want a CR box you can have the one out of my car and I'll swap for the one from your car ... I would quite like a longer 5th for motorway cruising.

Cheers,
Robin

I'll follow your advice on the engine, Ali is looking to see if he knows of any bangers going which would remove the need to get it back asap.

As for the swap that sounds excellent. The S1 111s had the CR box (I think) and I much preferred it...