Why don't I like Honda K20's

[Rich H]

This please:

I'm interested in how you built your K series. Looks like you have spent a lot of time coming up with improvements and would be an interesting read.

No need to unfairly compare it to other peoples engines.

Alan

I think you will find that we are very interested adn supportive of your work. Post that and don't worry about the comparisons please!
Quite a few of us are engineers by trade and most of the rest are amateur mechanics (The rest like shiny things) so we all aprreciate the work that goes in so please show it off!

[KingK_series]

This please:

I'm interested in how you built your K series. Looks like you have spent a lot of time coming up with improvements and would be an interesting read.

No need to unfairly compare it to other peoples engines.

Alan

I think you will find that we are very interested adn supportive of your work. Post that and don't worry about the comparisons please!
Quite a few of us are engineers by trade and most of the rest are amateur mechanics (The rest like shiny things) so we all aprreciate the work that goes in so please show it off!

Thankyou to those who are interested, but to those who are not, please let me make and comparisons by way of explaining my thesis, and if there are those , Shug clearly, who disagree then please disagree after I have made the argument - I am currently putting togeather pics of relevant parts and will be back, as and when they are assembled. As yet I have no complete K20 so trying to arrange for one to come here to weigh on MY calibrated scales to compare with K s so there can be no dispute about the scales. Loathe to buy one too - I do have bits of engines which make it pretty clear what ball park the weights are in, but need to be precise to win this argument.

To those genuinely interested I thank you for your posts and your interest.

[Shug]

What people (including Rich) are saying is that they are interested in your K series work, but the constant hammering of the Honda K20 is of very little interest and will only cause argument. You're not comparing like for like, so please don't try to fudge the issue and stop doing it. If we get proponents of the Honda K20 posting up with such fervent enthusiasm, will you simply let them post their findings without constant argument? Forgive me for generalising, but given the history of your posting on other forums, I very much doubt it.

At a very basic level, there's no need to rubbish another engine to 'prove' your point that the K can be a good one, so please don't do it. There's no place for it here and if you grasp that concept, then we'll be fine.

[tuscan_thunder]

I've read this read (and t'other one) with interest.

I'm far from an engineer (as anyone who knows me will know!) but it's made for a 'lively' read.


One thing, KingK_Series: you said: 'need to be precise to win this argument'

I'm not sure where there's an argument?

You've said you don't like Honda K20 engines. Fair enough. Move on. There are those here who love them. Each to their own.

I'm in the same boat as others here though, it'd be good to see a detailed write up of your K series build etc but there's no need for a comparison with anything; just let the results speak for themselves.


::edit:: posted this just as Shug did ::

[BiggestNizzy]

Nail - Head

I aint that fussed about weights let your work do the talking.

[Shug]

I'm not sure where there's an argument?

Bang - nail on head!

Simon, there's no argument here. People who want to put in a Honda will so so (usually for less than the 10 grand turnkey price from a dealer) people who want to stay with the K and improve it, will. There's no needle or argument between the groups on here - it's personal choice. Don't bring experience of other forums on here. Stop trying to rubbish people's personal choices, for whatever reason. Post the positives about what you do with a Rover K and stop concentrating on what's wrong with something else.

[hiscot]

Simon I think the days of honda conversions are coming to an end anyway , Duratec looks to be the favoured conversion but lets not start a bunfight over this either
more info on your engine would be great like what specs / price how many in service
I know you have gone to perfection on your engines , so some nice engine porn photos would be great too
its a shame if all you have learned ( and its a lot ) could not be shared with out reference to other engines as that will side track your efforts and restart old irelevent fights

[Corranga]

Simon, there's no argument here. People who want to put in a Honda will so so (usually for less than the 10 grand turnkey price from a dealer) people who want to stay with the K and improve it, will. There's no needle or argument between the groups on here - it's personal choice.

Almost true. What Simon might be missing is a nice (even potential business) opportunity to do a bit of both.
It seems clear to me that Simon knows the K very well.

Now, given the number of people that have spend £10k+ on a Honda, more on Audi, maybe a little less on a Ford Duratech... it would be interesting to know / see if building a powerful and more reliable K for road use is possible for less money, or even alternative ways to piece together a K with VHPD power, but better balance / power delivery / runs smoother etc..

Most will be more interested in the real world aspects, performance, fuel economy, cost, reliability, improvements in the HGF area.

Beyond that, comparing the K to another engine, say the Honda, like for like component wise is also interesting, but why not put a positive spin on it...
"The K is much lighter than the Honda, the way Rover developed parts X, Y, and Z is better than Honda because A, B and C. Note this makes the part stronger, and this can be milled to make it lighter without really effecting the part etc."
rather than rubbishing the engine, which surely even you must admit has some qualities, otherwise there wouldn't be so many fanboys for it!

I'm no engineer, I simply like to play with the oily bits on a fairly basic level, but it's impressive to read/see the things that you know, it's more impressive to see someone like you demonstrate their knowledge in an unbiased way, and let others make up their own mind.

Chris

[KingK_series]

What people (including Rich) are saying is that they are interested in your K series work, but the constant hammering of the Honda K20 is of very little interest and will only cause argument. You're not comparing like for like, so please don't try to fudge the issue and stop doing it. If we get proponents of the Honda K20 posting up with such fervent enthusiasm, will you simply let them post their findings without constant argument? Forgive me for generalising, but given the history of your posting on other forums, I very much doubt it.

At a very basic level, there's no need to rubbish another engine to 'prove' your point that the K can be a good one, so please don't do it. There's no place for it here and if you grasp that concept, then we'll be fine.

I disagree completely - because most people put a honda in out of despair of their K series experience, and please note I say K "experience" not K series engine, because it is the pursuit of 220bhp+ tuned engines which go bang, and the so called "HGF" issue which created the honda market


Mr S********m who started it all spent years trying to tune Ks, then all broke, so - he did the honda thing, now he insists the K cannot be tuned successfully [at all] the honda is only 15kg heavier and changes dyno plots that have been up for years over night that I compare to my Btcc engine.

My BTCC engine has great relevance to the road market because ;-

1/ it shows K s CAN be tuned to na honda levels reliably and work in an environment far far harsher than any amateur Elise pilot is capable of every day or in track use, bar willful abuse.

2/the parts that make the power are not by and by the expensive bits that serve only to make it a purpose built professional race tool, that sees WOT all the time it runs and never less than 6000rpm. The crank for instance in my engine could be perfectly easily swapped for an OE cast iron crank, ditto rods. The power comes from the valve, the cam, the head porting, and the mapping, the plenum/single tb emphasise this result rather than contribute to it.

3/if this work enables me to produce 220+bhp engines, that are reliable, cost less or same as a honda conversion, can last as long or longer and can be rebuilt for same as a honda or replacement of a honda, at a total engine weight of 80 odd kg vs 140+kg for a honda that makes my point - that the honda market is unnecessary and a mistake. If further I can show you the technical faults of a honda and how it compares to an OE or tuned equivalent K such that the honda GOES less well than a K, ie it runs rough, or is slow revving, that embellishes the argument.


Please let e make it, this thread and past days was not about a BTCC engine, it was about the POSSIBILITIES that engine opened up -

[woody]

If I was converting I'd want an A series, preferably a 998. Unlike a standard K (1400 IME), I've never seen one throw a rod, even when trying pretty hard to do so....


As above, V. Interested in your Rover K work, but why the negativity towards everything else and the irrelevant comparisons? Have read what you've done with genuine interest but too busy at work ATM to reply properly (building engines of sorts as well, or at least watching)

Do you do all the work yourself or develop, CAD/Cam and have someone else cast, Forge & machine? Must require a pretty special machine & manufacturing set-up if you're doing it. Are you doing this as a hobby or as a business? I only as fully developing such one-offs must consume a fair amount of resources?

[Shug]

Simon, all I ask is you actually READ what everyone is posting.

In answer to the thread title "Why I don't like Honda K20s" - the overwhelming response is "We don't care"

We do care about your K series experience. That's the point. Post what you did right with that and ignore other engines.

[KingK_series]

Simon, all I ask is you actually READ what everyone is posting.

In answer to the thread title "Why I don't like Honda K20s" - the overwhelming response is "We don't care"

We do care about your K series experience. That's the point. Post what you did right with that and ignore other engines.

I do, others can choose for themselves, and there are many who read but don't post, so please just listen over the next few days and weeks as I try and construct the argument and then decide. I am not making this personal, it is a purely technical argument, let people judge for themselves at the end, because I am guessing that people will learn a lot about K and the honda.

[foz01]

My K20 with gearbox was 148kgs iirc

[tuscan_thunder]

I do, others can choose for themselves, and there are many who read but don't post, so please just listen over the next few days and weeks as I try and construct the argument and then decide. I am not making this personal, it is a purely technical argument, let people judge for themselves at the end, because I am guessing that people will learn a lot about K and the honda.

Stop making it into an argument then!

Lay the facts out; people aren't stupid and anyone in the market for a Honda/Duratec/Audi conversion will do their homework and take on board your thoughts.

If you're work is as good as you say, and I have no reason to disbelieve you, then let it do the talking.

I'm from a sales and marketing background and the best thing to do with selling things you believe in is show them off.

Don't slag off competitors, don't put anyone else down; if you think you're the best, go and prove it by rising above, not by trying to drag others down.

[Shug]

If you're going to ignore the moderation requests and requests from most people posting on this thread, on your head be it. If a flame war starts, it'll be locked very quickly and you'll also be banned quickly for anything outwith the posting rules. We DO NOT want that to happen, as I (and I'm sure the rest of the forum) am very interested in your Rover work outwith your evangelical decrying of the Honda.

As long as you agree to be clear, accurate and factual. With no emotive nonsense, like calling something rubbish without substantiation. "FYI the honda rod is really poor, like the piston" is unacceptable without clear reasoning why and accepting and dealing with counter-arguments in a level-headed way.

That notwithstanding, a thread purely rubbishing an engine I feel has very little place. If it causes offence to significant amounts of members directly or indirectly and they raise that issue, in accordance with good manners, it'll be removed. What we would really like to see is a detailed explanation of what you do to your "King K" K series engines and why.

Clear and unequivocal?