Why don't I like Honda K20's

[philthy]

Even my other half just commented on how bad that engine bay is...

[KingK_series]

Even my other half just commented on how bad that engine bay is...

yep true

but it was a work in progress

now with new loom, new airbox and billet cam cover [to fit coil on plugs]

- but havn't got a pic to post.

I'll get one some time -

[Scuffers]

so, that cars been a work in progress for how many years?

at least I can post up pictures of installs that don't look like bodgeit and co.

[tut]

Looks good.

tut

[hiscot]

looks expensive and thats with out the gold choc wrapper

[Scuffers]

looks expensive and thats with out the gold choc wrapper

well, to be fair, all the gold covered bit's were done by it's owner, Jamie Willson, he (with some help from friends) has done a huge amount of the work on it for this year (Built write-up here).

Yes, none of this was cheap, but as the saying goes, buy cheap, pay twice, if you use the right parts first time and fit them properly, you don't end up doing the job half-a-dozen times.

Jamie then went on to win his class and get 2nd overall at the first round of TimeAttack.

[KingK_series]

so, that cars been a work in progress for how many years?

at least I can post up pictures of installs that don't look like bodgeit and co.

Ha, you do make me laugh Scuffers, all that money in an aftermarket gearbox, and then a rough old red top [painted black!] with as old and inefficient a blower as you can get [M62] bolted on - what a contradiction! - and what for just 350bhp? blown??? and I guess engine box, starter, alternator etc weigh - 200kg? or more??

I'll have to see if I can find someone who wants to build a blown engine to trip this one up!

- anyway you avoid the question again, are you going to fess up that there is 43kg between stock a k20 and K, engines alone?

a k20A2 does NOT weigh 119.2kg without alternator etc does it - !

[Dipper]

"I'll have to see if I can find someone who wants to build a blown engine to trip this one up!"

Good luck with that. Would need to be someone who doesn't read the forum!

[Scuffers]

Ha, you do make me laugh Scuffers, all that money in an aftermarket gearbox, and then a rough old red top [painted black!] with as old and inefficient a blower as you can get [M62] bolted on - what a contradiction! - and what for just 350bhp? blown??? and I guess engine box, starter, alternator etc weigh - 200kg? or more??

you still just don't get it do you?

that's a std K20A2 with cams, an off the shelf supercharger/IC kit, job done.

no 'special' stuff that's un-obtainium, no waiting about for 10 years for something that may well never appear.

it's out there, winning in open competition (and whilst Time Attack may not be the pinnacle of Motorsport, it's still open competition).

Look, cut the crap, time to put up or shut up, list the cars/owners that have engines you built, along with their results, you have had 10 years now, the book is never going to happen, time to come clean.

[GP1]

Sorry, although (outside of owning a few differently engined lotuses) I am largely ignorant to everthing thats being discussed, I couldn't resist adding something to this wonderful thread.

I am personally a big fan of the K series engine. I had one in a S2 elise and found it a nice little combination. The K20 conversion however is clearly far superior, combining performance and reliability in a way the K Series never could. I can only imagine how superb the converted 340r mentioned would be.

Now for my real opinion; I know a guy who shall remain nameless. He is constantly building and rebuilding cars. Always VAG stuff as it happens. VRing everything in sight. He loves nothing more than taling about 'scaring bikers', 'eating porsches', 'destroying lotuses', etc. However, everytime I go to his premises there is just a lot sh*t looking cars hanging about in peices as he talks about the latest space age technology or custom this or one off that. He also likes to post photos of individual components on facebook, to rapturous virtual applause from like minded individuals. BTW this same guy once argued that a Corsa with a 2.0 red top calibra engine (150bhp) would have my exige round a track.

Now, in all the time I've known him (10 years), I have had more cars than I can count. Done thousands of miles and generally proved them to extremely capable machines to myself and probably to others. Meanwhile, he has not turned a wheel.

When I read this thread, I get a certain sense of deja vu.

The term I use to describe my acquaintence is Walter Mitty.

As mentioned else where in the thread, the best way to promote a product is to build it, and then prove it. Then you can impart your wisdom on the great unwashed. At this point, people will be delighted to find out where they are going wrong. Until then, your just another guy in a shed surrounded by bits of cars, making big claims.

My advice to KingK would be to get one of these dream machines to a track, lay waste to the competiton.Then share your technology with the masses and make a nice wee profit.

In the meantime, I'll keep liking K20 elises, exiges and 340rs. I guess ignorance really is bliss.

[Dominic]

Great post GP1

[Stevoraith]

And can we not put the weight thing to bed too- Tut has proven the weight of his early S1 with a S/C Honda. Surely there is an early S1 with a standard K that can be weighed somewhere!?

BTW- I'm completely unbiased on this debate- I bought a VX instead of K-series Elise as I didn't want to be watching the temperature guage all the time and I hate revvy V-tec type engines since I've been driving torquey uber-diesels for a decade. So I hate the K and the K20 equally

From a neutral point of view (with no ownership experience of either engine or any technical knowledge!) the ascertation that the K-series is a reliable engine and the Honda K20 (which is often lauded as having one of the best reliability records in the industry) is inherently unreliable seems absurd.

The constant re-itteration that the K-series has problems because it was designed in the days before CAD etc also seem rediculous- I don't recall Vauxhall (e.g. C20XE) or Ford engines designed around the same time having the same sort of reliability issues or reputation as the K-series.

[GP1]

In fact, I've just had a brainwave. Lets go into business together. We could sell the uberK to Ariel for use in the Atom, instead of those silly K20 things or the daft V8s. Then we could open it up as a retrofit to existing Atom customers. The Atom forums are no doubt full of people trying to get decent K series conversion for their Atoms.

[Shug]

Don't want to get all moderator on this, but similarly don't want to see this descending into angry retorts. Sorry guys, but can we steer clear of ridicule, especially when it's a technical thread with some content.

[campbell]

The weight thing can be put to bed fairly easily.

Power to weights in bhp per tonne starting from a late vintage S1 Elise at 750kg with std K series:

1 - 157 bhp/tonne - std "118" bhp K
2 - 196 - lightly breathed on K eg flowed and ported head or mild cams with ~147bhp = 25% improvement on [1]
3a - 267 - 750kg S1 with K series tuned to 200bhp = 36% improvement on [2]; 70% improvement on [1]
3b - 278 - 720kg lightened S1 with 200bhp K
4a - 275 - 800kg S1 with K20 tuned to 220bhp = 3% improvement on [3a]; 40% improvement on [2]; 75% improvement on [1]
4b - 287 - 765kg S1 with 220bhp K20

There are some simple assumptions in there about weight gain / loss but the main thing to note is the relatively tiny variation in bhp/tonne for sake of 20-30kg here or there (compare 3a and 3b; 4a and 4b).

Also the above take no notice of differences in torque curves. Maybe irrelevant for racing purposes and maybe even trackdays but for the 99% of Elise users, the torque plot is going to have the greater impact on how fast their cars "feel". And unless you are racing on the public road (surely not), "feel" is what matters. Let's ignore mpg for the moment of course.

What's the bottom line?

A standard S1 is a sound blend of performance through lightweight with no tinkering.

A lightly tuned K puts the S1 exactly where it should be for real-world performance on the road and the occasional trackday. (IMHO)

A 200bhp K takes the car to an "expert" trackday person's level of performance, but with fragility unless using the non-commercially-available KingK bits and pieces discussed in recent past.

A 220bhp K20 takes the car to the same "expert" level, but with less fragility (anecdotal based on the number of K20s in use that are known to this forum), and with commercially available bits and pieces.

The 200bhp K is a racing engine, not found in any mass-produced, mass-tested road car. The 220bhp K20 is a stock road car engine, found in vast quantities in mass-produced, mass-tested cars from one of the world's largest motor manufacturers.

There really isn't much more to say about it, is there?

Time to stop the willy-waving, maybe.