Why I don't like [what gets done to] the Rover K series and

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woody
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Re: Why I don't like [what gets done to] the Rover K series

Post by woody » Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:33 pm

Shug wrote:To clarify, woody is an aerospace engineer and his day job includes that sort of picture of engineering issues - he's trying to help you put you point across clearer for everyone, Simon, not questioning it.

Stretching things a bit there Shug :lol:

I look after Quality in our repair shop at the moment and a lot of that involves pitching & fixing processes like the engine above. Quite a few processes in there that would probably interest you Simon; Plasma spraying, Heat treat, solution & age that may be of use/interest for K developments.

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Re: Why I don't like [what gets done to] the Rover K series

Post by KingK_series » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:25 pm

Shug wrote:To clarify, woody is an aerospace engineer and his day job includes that sort of picture of engineering issues - he's trying to help you put you point across clearer for everyone, Simon, not questioning it.

Not questioning Woody's point at all, he is absolutely right - Anyone could wind in the gauge or even deliberately mislead, but I haven't and anyone IS welcome to come over and measure up for themselves.

Just to add I sent several of these blocks up to Stu a few years ago to measure in his CNN machine - he spent a lot of time and got 22+thou out too.

but again I come back to the point - that with an approach so incomprehensibly wrong, what ever the number it just ain't gonna work, and to me that is butchery...

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Re: Why I don't like [what gets done to] the Rover K series

Post by KingK_series » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:26 pm

woody wrote:
Shug wrote:To clarify, woody is an aerospace engineer and his day job includes that sort of picture of engineering issues - he's trying to help you put you point across clearer for everyone, Simon, not questioning it.

Stretching things a bit there Shug :lol:

I look after Quality in our repair shop at the moment and a lot of that involves pitching & fixing processes like the engine above. Quite a few processes in there that would probably interest you Simon; Plasma spraying, Heat treat, solution & age that may be of use/interest for K developments.

Definitely.... we should talk, especially interested in plasma spraying.

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Re: Why I don't like [what gets done to] the Rover K series

Post by Stu160 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:21 pm

KingK_series wrote:
Shug wrote:To clarify, woody is an aerospace engineer and his day job includes that sort of picture of engineering issues - he's trying to help you put you point across clearer for everyone, Simon, not questioning it.

Not questioning Woody's point at all, he is absolutely right - Anyone could wind in the gauge or even deliberately mislead, but I haven't and anyone IS welcome to come over and measure up for themselves.

Just to add I sent several of these blocks up to Stu a few years ago to measure in his CNN machine - he spent a lot of time and got 22+thou out too.

but again I come back to the point - that with an approach so incomprehensibly wrong, what ever the number it just ain't gonna work, and to me that is butchery...
Just to correct, its a CMM (Coordinate Measuring Machine), common mistake, its because I talk to fast.
More often known as a "Bingo Machine" , as they chuck out loads of numbers. I have just had a nice new one installed 2 weeks ago
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Re: Why I don't like [what gets done to] the Rover K series

Post by BiggestNizzy » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:30 pm

Stu160 wrote:More often known as a "Bingo Machine" , as they chuck out loads of numbers. I have just had a nice new one installed 2 weeks ago
axiom-too-manual-6.jpg
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woody
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Re: Why I don't like [what gets done to] the Rover K series

Post by woody » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:54 pm

We've only the one, an LK brand CMM. Never played with it, but have been on the receiving side of It's sizes plenty. Was going to see if I can get my block on it.

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Re: Why I don't like [what gets done to] the Rover K series

Post by KingK_series » Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:20 pm

woody wrote:We've only the one, an LK brand CMM. Never played with it, but have been on the receiving side of It's sizes plenty. Was going to see if I can get my block on it.

Whatever you call it, Stu has one and the blocks were scrap from new [aftermarket screw up]

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Re: Why I don't like [what gets done to] the Rover K series

Post by woody » Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:49 pm

KingK_series wrote:
woody wrote:We've only the one, an LK brand CMM. Never played with it, but have been on the receiving side of It's sizes plenty. Was going to see if I can get my block on it.

Whatever you call it, Stu has one and the blocks were scrap from new [aftermarket screw up]
Yes, and agree 5 thou is a lot... 22 thou on that size dia. ridiculous.

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Re: Why I don't like [what gets done to] the Rover K series

Post by KingK_series » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:16 am

woody wrote:
KingK_series wrote:
woody wrote:We've only the one, an LK brand CMM. Never played with it, but have been on the receiving side of It's sizes plenty. Was going to see if I can get my block on it.

Whatever you call it, Stu has one and the blocks were scrap from new [aftermarket screw up]
Yes, and agree 5 thou is a lot... 22 thou on that size dia. ridiculous.


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Rich H
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Re: Why I don't like [what gets done to] the Rover K series

Post by Rich H » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:17 am

Is it only down to the honing conditions then? What sort of accuracy can you expect honing cold - like the average engine overhaul place would?
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Re: Why I don't like [what gets done to] the Rover K series

Post by KingK_series » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:02 pm

Rich H wrote:Is it only down to the honing conditions then? What sort of accuracy can you expect honing cold - like the average engine overhaul place would?

Hot honing gives very much better results in all cases especially with a closed deck block ie Honda K20 with blockguard or Datron liners.

Cold honing on a stock K series with undersize liners will work well enough, provided the tooling and methodology are correct - clearly they are not in the example I have given.

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Re: Why I don't like [what gets done to] the Rover K series

Post by KingK_series » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:19 pm

Here is a pic of a ported head done by someone who thinks a lot of his work.....


The problems here are multiple, I have issues with his view of how to port to increase flow, but leaving that aside, the real difficulties are that he thins the bifurcation too much, this causes reflections in the port - flow is always better around a generous radius rather than a knife edge, - but more importantly it becomes so weak as not to be able to withstand the insertion of new valve seats once thinned to this degree, this may not matter in the short term, but if a MS2 head needs new seats at some stage [and you cannot go on recutting them forever] the bifurcation will crack even if the head is heated and the seats are frozen in a nitrogen bath.

Worse still, the seats are hand cut giving horrible results, and the individual involved described to me how he lapped the valves in with a drill and lapping paste - this results in all th heads from this source having worn valves and sometimes bent from new. One individual I built an engine for some time ago had a whole head built up from this source, - the valves and seats were so bad he just flogged the whole thing on unused for less money than he'd paid to have the work done.


A modern properly jigged valve seat cutter must be used under all circumstances - never ever be fobbed of by less -

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Re: Why I don't like [what gets done to] the Rover K series

Post by campbell » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:38 pm

Have you an equivalen pic of how it should look if done "right"?
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Re: Why I don't like [what gets done to] the Rover K series

Post by Shug » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:46 pm

This is an image from Cosworth USA's site showing their inlet port modification. Whilst I get your point about thinning down the bifurcation, but the "reflections" caused don't seem to bother Cosworth (totally different head, I appreciate) So, would you say that this knife-edge sharpening of the bifurcation is to be avoided in only the K series, or is it a general statement, so you're claiming Cosworth have it wrong?

I understand that's not the main point of the post here and I have nothing to question on your other points, but it is something that's confused me - every ported or 'performance' head I've ever seen has a pretty sharp knife edge in that area.

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Rich H
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Re: Why I don't like [what gets done to] the Rover K series

Post by Rich H » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:59 pm

I can appreciate that knife edges are probably not ideal
Subsonic aerodynamics don't like sharp leading edges, smooth radii are better.
I'd imagine that a smooth radii would give more consistent flows in more conditions.
Look at gas turbine blades all rounded leading edges and sharp traling edges.
Not sure about reflections but I don't know anything about pipe flow!
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