Why I don't like [what gets done to] the Rover K series and

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KingK_series
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Re: Why I don't like [what gets done to] the Rover K series

Post by KingK_series » Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:41 am

campbell wrote:Simon, I think you have to also bear in mind that Honda as a brand has a strong reputation. The Type-R sub-brand in particular is really respected (IMHO), and as a result that can leach across into areas that might not be expected.


Campbell

And ......

try saying the above to the owner of the Elise from which this came......

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KingK_series
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Re: Why I don't like [what gets done to] the Rover K series

Post by KingK_series » Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:46 am

Or this one.....

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KingK_series
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Re: Why I don't like [what gets done to] the Rover K series

Post by KingK_series » Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:50 am

Or this Elise owner.......... this one only did one lap on track and bang......

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KingK_series
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Re: Why I don't like [what gets done to] the Rover K series

Post by KingK_series » Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:00 am

..........however I digress


back to"building" the Rover ....

here was a good one.....

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The "tuner" who ported and built this engine to a larger capacity CBA to fit a bleed takeoff to the off the shelf Jenvey 42MM TBS

- result the head could not evacuate the air from either filling with coolant, or the inevitable air bubbles that result from cavitation caused by the poor quality OE water pump, causing the head to go soft and the engine to fail. The hacked about pistons above were from the same engine, Oh and he went through the head casting on the exhaust side too, tiny hole but enough to leak, .......
Last edited by KingK_series on Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:30 am, edited 2 times in total.

KingK_series
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Re: Why I don't like [what gets done to] the Rover K series

Post by KingK_series » Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:05 am

Here, my effort to remedy that issue


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robin
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Re: Why I don't like [what gets done to] the Rover K series

Post by robin » Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:55 am

Simon, the pictures get cropped by some browsers and so the relevant feature (bottom right) is hidden for some. Suggest you crop the images to smaller res yourself to highlight the important feature ... it took me a while to work out the difference between the two and only spotted it when I opened the images in another window.

Cheers,
Robin
I is in your loomz nibblin ur wirez
#bemoretut

KingK_series
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Re: Why I don't like [what gets done to] the Rover K series

Post by KingK_series » Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:56 pm

Here are 2 aftermarket inlet valves, the silver a brand new plasma nitrided valve, the dark valve next to it is an older tuftrided valve, out of a head ported and built into an engine by an established K series 'tuner'.
On a visit to his workshop he demonstrated to me how he cuts the valve seats by hand - which works so badly, he then laps in the valves using the lapping stick in a drill - the result is not only badly seated valves which WILL bend against the seats [had that on Giles Smiths new in a plastic bag £3500 ported head with cams MS2] but the valve seat on the valve itself gets badly worn and grooved from excessive lapping from the drill. Something so normal to him he recommended the practice to me. -

Really bad practice and will only lead to poor engines that do not last.

the tuftrided valve from this tuner clearly shows the damaged seat...

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Re: Why I don't like [what gets done to] the Rover K series

Post by KingK_series » Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:58 am

Just been emailed this pic from a thread on Exiges....
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here is the crank out of Sean Bicknell's stock VHPD, broken in exactly the same way, for exactly the same reason -
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apparently someone asking why this had happened, and several people giving explanations, VF saying they had never seen it before{?} Janspeed saying it was common in BTCC[?] - that is not true, and that it is caused by bad castings?, bad balancing?..... all not true.

This failure has nothing to do with any shortcoming in the crank.

- here is a non Rover, aftermarket steel crank that has suffered the same failure...

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this was the analysis emailed to me

"Breaking through this web on stock cranks are common.

Causes often are (as I understand):

- Using a poorly-balanced chutch/flywheel assembly
- Lots of high-shock cycles (aggressive standing starts / clutch dumps
- Using a non-damped crank pulley
- Extended running around the crank resonance point at ~7200RPM."

Balancing has nothing to do with this failure
my iron cranks have survived many aggressive cerametallic clutch starts and sequential clutch-less shifts
the damper pulley does not in any way relate to this failure
the failure is caused by resonant frequency vibration, the solution to which I have posted many times on seloc and exiges and is not difficult to achieve


- so another reason "not to like what get's done to the K series"
- people don't listen....

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Re: Why I don't like [what gets done to] the Rover K series

Post by KingK_series » Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:00 pm

Another problem is the very poor quality of aftermarket parts -


see these verniers after 2 years use, badly worn because they are made of cheap H30 and simply colour anodised rather than hard anodised.

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Re: Why I don't like [what gets done to] the Rover K series

Post by KingK_series » Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:06 pm

These from the same manufacturer, they had done 2 races, a few set up track days and a little running in

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Re: Why I don't like [what gets done to] the Rover K series

Post by KingK_series » Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:09 pm

Here is another shot of the sping on the end

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- why did this happen? because they are made of a totally inappropriate steel for the use to which they are put... standard shaved wire, same as used by OEs in low lift shopping trolly engines

high lift long duration cams MUST have race wire springs, all my engines now have bespoke Kobi race wire springs after this experience....

The story behind this was ;-
this was from Sean Bicknell's 2006 Lot engine, he won his class outright first race, then had a fault which he first blamed on the gearbox {?} then the paddleshift [?] but turned out to be his electrical cut off rotting [he lost all electrical power half way through the race] ......it was something of a sign of things to come,

whilst he was searching for his problem, I suggested fitting a proper clutch since the engine was a rapid chuck together and originally had simply an uprated pressed steel clutch.....which broke testing as they so often do, no doubt not helped by Sean's flat shift paddle clutch, so I suggested an engine out since the crankset would need to be re-balanced., which Sean paid for and a second very expensive Quatermaster clutch as spare [completely unnecessary, but his faith in clutches must have been shattered somewhat by the wretched pressed steel cover disintegrating]

I used the opportunity to check the whole engine, there were some bore issues from not running in under load, so liners were replaced FOC and I then rebalanced the crankset to a new flywheel and Quatermaster twin plate clutch to 24gmm [inside 2004 Mclaren F1 tolerence].
I thought I'd decoke the head, and bear in mind there had been no apparent running issues with the engine till that point, only to find one spring collapsed and broken -with as I said next to no use....the spring had simply collapsed onto itself and gone to a higher rate, but would have trashed the valve and the spring seat given time. I sent the springs back to the supplier who kindly supplied a complete set FOC, so Sean's engine was rapidly rebuilt and went off again, but asked for an explanation as to why this happened.......nothing came back by way of analysis, I waited months, the man who I delt with at said company eventually left, but no explanation. So in sheer frustration I started phoning around all the spring manufacturers [very specialist] who made them for said 'manufacturer of cams and verniers etc' - they in fact subcontracted the manufacture of the springs. Eventually I found the spring maker to this company, Performance Springs, who manufacture on a very large scale for lots of end users including OE's. I asked them if they had had back a double spring that had broken about a year earlier for technical analysis..... no they had not. Astonished I sent in another from the set that had been in Sean's engine and they duly identified it as theirs and that it had been supplied to known end user. So could they give me an analysis, not of failed spring since I no longer had it, but of that springs material specification. I was told it was standard shaved wire .... cheap one up from cheapest spec [non shaved] commonly used by OEs for shopping trolly engines.......I was amazed, so I asked whether they could give me a fatigue life given a 274deg 12.2 mm lift spring, - their immediate reaction, this spring SHOULD NOT be used with such a cam, - please can you work out a fatigue life. They came back the next day and said..... 48hours max.......that is to say that after 48hours running this spring would have fatigued outside perameters suitable to control the valve on a 12.2mm lift cam.

I have one word for such as this......madness

no two and profiteering...
Last edited by KingK_series on Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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tut
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Re: Why I don't like [what gets done to] the Rover K series

Post by tut » Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:26 pm

Agree about the verniers, but without your knowledge we have probably bought them in good faith from Elise Parts etc.

When I upgraded the K to 190hp, the verniers were wearing through far too quickly.

tut

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Re: Why I don't like [what gets done to] the Rover K series

Post by KingK_series » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:57 am

tut wrote:Agree about the verniers, but without your knowledge we have probably bought them in good faith from Elise Parts etc.

When I upgraded the K to 190hp, the verniers were wearing through far too quickly.

tut

Yep the commercially available verniers are made as cheap as chips, they wear and go out of round, worse the newer design has only 3 retaing bolts which I have seen on several engines slip and trash the engine.

see pics

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a 3 bolt vernier from an engine with an old 1227 cam rebuilt by the original engine builder [according to invoices] with new verniers [possibly replaving worn older 4 bolt design] only for the vernier to slip causing this to the engine....

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- expensive and ultra rare MS2 head trashed, pistons trashed, rods bent, liners trashed, block cracked right through, not much left.....all for the price of a cheap vernier

so take if from me that is why I have my own verniers and springs, and cams etc etc etc.....

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hiscot
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Re: Why I don't like [what gets done to] the Rover K series

Post by hiscot » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:28 pm

Simon I have a piper 4 bolt and a kent fitted to mine I have seen the very bad wear on the pipers so will keep a close eye on that , but on my other engine I have unusual titan pulleys hard anodised but with a peg and hole set up ( not ideal either )
anyway on the other thread you say a proper water pump is required where from ? and is a pump suitable for a high rev race engine like yours still be suitable for a get to work plodder ie flow enough I expect as the rpm increase with a tuned engine the pump spins to fast flow wise ?
as my engine has peak power and torque very low below 6k I expect the std pump to be ok ?
On another note regarding the poor rod ratio on a high screamer is there room to increase the rod length at the cost of a higher piston pin using support rails for the rings
I see on other forums its done and has benefits
bob

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KingK_series
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Re: Why I don't like [what gets done to] the Rover K series

Post by KingK_series » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:40 pm

hiscot wrote:Simon I have a piper 4 bolt and a kent fitted to mine I have seen the very bad wear on the pipers so will keep a close eye on that , but on my other engine I have unusual titan pulleys hard anodised but with a peg and hole set up ( not ideal either )
anyway on the other thread you say a proper water pump is required where from ? and is a pump suitable for a high rev race engine like yours still be suitable for a get to work plodder ie flow enough I expect as the rpm increase with a tuned engine the pump spins to fast flow wise ?
as my engine has peak power and torque very low below 6k I expect the std pump to be ok ?
On another note regarding the poor rod ratio on a high screamer is there room to increase the rod length at the cost of a higher piston pin using support rails for the rings
I see on other forums its done and has benefits

OE pump doesn't really work at all

none of my engines use them for that reason -

short rod lengths are bad, on some of the SC aftermarket engines, even shorter rods become a real problem

All my engines run significantly longer rods, that comes from careful crank, piston and rod design
Last edited by KingK_series on Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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