Why I don't like [what gets done to] the Rover K series and

[KingK_series]

And finally on Sean Bicknell's engine

here is the crank after I bought the engine back from Sean



the 300 on the web was written by the same company who balanced the crankset to 24gmm when originally fitted with this flywheel and clutch, - to signify the crankset was now 300gmm out!!!!

How did that happen? Well I sent the rods back to Arrow who measured them up and 2 were stretched and twisted, 2 were fine, that with witness marks on the pistons clearly showed the engine had been massively buzzed and 2 pistons had actually bridged the normal 2.2 mm gap to the head face and hit it [quite a feat] leaving witness marks and causing a violent stop.

that bent the crank, trashed 2 rods, marked the pistons, bent all the valves, and cracked one vernier badly, the other slightly.

I suspect the buzz happened sometime earlier than the race where the fact something was wrong became apparent - after the inlet vernier gave way, but have no way of knowing since I was not allowed to see data logger data........... but anyway the engine survived a much bigger failure that the one above [that is to say the previous page] and is now rebuilt soon to be reinstalled in a S1 elise, - a fact down to the material spec of my valves, liners and the build, - a very different story from the trashed engine in the earlier pics which suffered merely a slipped vernier,

[KingK_series]

Back to the poor quality aftermarket parts

- this after a very low mileage, pitting and loss of material on several but not all the lobes on both shafts



this happens because of poor quality casting - I have NEVER seen this on OE shafts -

[KingK_series]

Bearings


.......

one of the things I really hate.... really badly designed and manufactured aftermarket cranks, one "maker" happily now defunct regularly ground the pin journals slightly undersized. Other "unnamed" engine builders thought there was a need for a "heavy duty" tri-metal bearing, but did it in only one grade......said engine builders fitted said 'heavy duty' bearing regardless of pin diameter, resulting in massive bearing clearances - I have measured up to 4 thou on a newly built engine!!!

result ... the rod chatters on the crank journal, making a bloody awful noise and fretting of the inside of the rod journal - see rod on left by comparison to new.



which leads too....




stupid, and would never have happened with a stock crank and stock AS16 bearings. mindboggling stupid... the car this came from caught fire.

[roadboy]

You don't mention, however, that AS16 bearings were not standard OE spec (apart from the EU3 VVC engine) and are only available for the 1800 big end end sizes. If you have a 1400 or 1600 you still only have the option of AS15 bearing which aren't ideal.

Simon, I think what you need to realise is that the K series is not a good engine, it's a good design but in production form it was one of the worst production I4s of it's time.

It has nothing to do with what aftermarket engine builders have done to it. The blame lies squarely with MG Rover with costed down parts and piss poor QC when building them in the first place.

It's all very well saying you can build a reliable high powered K series but how much of that engine will be OE parts and at what cost???

You compare standard production engines to your hideously expensive one-off builds as if it's a fair comparison.

I know these points have been put to you many times before and you are happy to just ignore it all and continue on your crusade but I thought it best just to point out the ridiculousness of all of this to the uninitiated.

I love the clever design of the K series and I'm happy to be running one in my race car but no amount of mud-slinging and finger pointing can get away from the fact that it is an engine with major issues and a woeful history of reliability (particulary in standard form).

Your biggest problem with the delivery of your preachings is the constant sniping at others and comparisons to other production engines that are clearly superior in design, build and reliability.

Stick to what you can do to improve the K without all the childish crap and your posts will be enjoyed by all, including me!

/2p

Dan

[KingK_series]

You don't mention, however, that AS16 bearings were not standard OE spec (apart from the EU3 VVC engine) and are only available for the 1800 big end end sizes. If you have a 1400 or 1600 you still only have the option of AS15 bearing which aren't ideal.

Simon, I think what you need to realise is that the K series is not a good engine, it's a good design but in production form it was one of the worst production I4s of it's time.

It has nothing to do with what aftermarket engine builders have done to it. The blame lies squarely with MG Rover with costed down parts and piss poor QC when building them in the first place.

It's all very well saying you can build a reliable high powered K series but how much of that engine will be OE parts and at what cost???

You compare standard production engines to your hideously expensive one-off builds as if it's a fair comparison.

I know these points have been put to you many times before and you are happy to just ignore it all and continue on your crusade but I thought it best just to point out the ridiculousness of all of this to the uninitiated.

I love the clever design of the K series and I'm happy to be running one in my race car but no amount of mud-slinging and finger pointing can get away from the fact that it is an engine with major issues and a woeful history of reliability (particulary in standard form).

Your biggest problem with the delivery of your preachings is the constant sniping at others and comparisons to other production engines that are clearly superior in design, build and reliability.

Stick to what you can do to improve the K without all the childish crap and your posts will be enjoyed by all, including me!

/2p

Dan

At the time the above busted engine was built [2006] AS16 bearings were available and the "engine builder" CHOSE NOT TO USE THEM but instead trimetals that gave the wrong clearance.


Yes the K does have a major issue with the cause of the issue people call "HGF" which I discussed openly at the beginning of the thread - try reading it again.

All engines have issues, though with modern CFD [not available when K was designed] problems are fewer, however the K20 has very poor design features which I do not care for for the purely technical reasons I have tried to carefully explain in that thread. Hondas not infrequently throw rods - I have 5 out of Elises that have done just that. The guy at Atom told me that he has had brand new K20s throw rods in their first mile of running -



and finally would you accept any of the aftermarket engine building listed above in an engine built for you?

[roadboy]

I give up! I can actually have a more constructive discussion my 5 year old daughter than this.

Preach away. I'm out!

Dan

[KingK_series]

I give up! I can actually have a more constructive discussion my 5 year old daughter than this.

Preach away. I'm out!

Dan

So what are you choosing to believe that the engine above was not built in 2006?????

[KingK_series]

Here is one that popped up on seloc.... ones of the "experts" selling his skills to someone keeeeeeen to be taken in.

so off comes head to be ported and then 160 pistons go in to be a bit tougher than standard 120 bhp pistons.

so here is the man stripping the engine...



for new liners....

ok so he can't deck the block in situ so he's got his own taller liners....not my idea of a solution because you cannot true the liner shoulders, but how then do you set correct bearing clearances on the pins? - for sure there is no space to get a micrometer through the crank carrier to measure it.

here he is all pretty with new liners and pistons.....



and how much crap has got into the engine from the engine bay.............

maybe a lot of garages would do the same for a shopping trolly engine.............. but is this anywhere near acceptable for a track engine in a pride and joy Lotus?

- not in my book!

[KingK_series]

- And I don't like the design of aftermarket parts that do not follow OEM design or tolerances

- here an aftermarket steel inner oil pump



A steel pump is a useful modification to the engine for track use, - though much is written about the need for this only if the front crank damper is ditched. The Crank damper is designed to damp torsional shock in the crank - extend a cranks life, and also helps to damp the crankset resonant frequancies, this helps reduce the vibration at those two specific resonant engine speeds that the oil pump sees, but actually unless the engine sits at either of those speeds the resultant stress imposed on the pump that the damper is designed to damp is very moderate, on the other hand secondary forces of vibration are high and in a track engine these are enough to crack the sintered OEM pum.

The answer is nowever not the above EN8 pump where the lobes have been so badly formed that they soon become "wiped" in the outer pump, damaging both profiles and throwing steel debris into the oil.

This has happened simply because the OEM profile was not accurately reverse engineered into the aftermarket rotor.

[KingK_series]

another thing I don't like

- the really bad AFTERMARKET steel cranks available off the shelf for the K -



would never use this in one of mine -

[KingK_series]

- And here is another shocking bit of design, -



the crank out of the Judd BTCC engine .

[KingK_series]

- and here's another crank, this one out of the much followed 1.4 turbo engine on seloc



like the judd it has none of the elegance of an OEM casting, is horribly undercounterweighted, very cheaply machined with all those flats,

and downright ugly!

the oil breakouts on the pins have also been machined out at 90 deg to the crank axis - which is where they can not do the useful job of cushioning the crank and rod at ignition like OEM and a huge disadvantage in a turbo engine!

[Gourlay83]

- and here's another crank, this one out of the much followed 1.4 turbo engine on seloc



like the judd it has none of the elegance of an OEM casting,

Would that not be because it's made from billet, not cast ?

[KingK_series]

- and here's another crank, this one out of the much followed 1.4 turbo engine on seloc



like the judd it has none of the elegance of an OEM casting,

Would that not be because it's made from billet, not cast ?

nope

just a really bad design, with no thought or effort towards crank dynamics

and extremely cheaply made.

[Gourlay83]

- and here's another crank, this one out of the much followed 1.4 turbo engine on seloc

like the judd it has none of the elegance of an OEM casting,

Would that not be because it's made from billet, not cast ?

nope

just a really bad design, with no thought or effort towards crank dynamics

and extremely cheaply made.

mmm, right you've got me asking.

How did you come to that conclusion regarding crank dynamics looking at a picture ?, can you expand on the bad design.