High Lift Cam Kit from PTP - Extra 20bhp - Worth While ?

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a4drk
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High Lift Cam Kit from PTP - Extra 20bhp - Worth While ?

Post by a4drk » Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:24 pm

Has anyone fitted this kit from Power Train Projects?
http://www.ptp-ltd.co.uk/shop/ProductDe ... ductID=875

It's £499

1) Are the cams any good, since they are not Piper?
2) Do you still need the Vernier Pulley Wheels at this level?
3) Is it a DIY job?

I already have the Janspeed, but no ITG induction.
I've just got a Pipercross Foam thing - but sounds great...
(£80 against £300odd)

David
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GregR
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Post by GregR » Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:46 pm

speak to Robin or Ali on here, I'm sure your money could be better spent elsewhere - potentially on head modifications.

Fitting cams is (obviously) a head off job, so you'd best be very mechanically savy to undertake that. All I know about it is that there's about 10 head bolts that have to be torqued in a certain order when re-fitting... that alone is enough to make me pass on the job!! New belts, new coolant etc is also required, so thinking about it you'd best be confident you could carry out a 'C' service yourself if you went ahead!

I got a head ported, new larger valves and new cams for not much more than that so I'm sure there will be an option to suit your budget. As soon as you're into engine modding at that level (i.e. not just 'strap on' mods like filters, exhausts and manifolds.) you're better to spend more now and get the full lot (i.e. head port & cams) rather than just cams - you'll eventually get the head done and that's 2 times you'll have had the head off.

best of luck :D
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Post by GregR » Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:48 pm

Oh, FWIW I doubt you'd need verniers, I'm running in excess of 140PS and I'm on standard pulleys and the standard MEMS ECU
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Post by mckeann » Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:51 pm

GregR wrote: Fitting cams is (obviously) a head off job,

No its not :roll: :lol:

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Post by Shug » Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:13 pm

Head stays on to swap cams, but would need to come off for porting. That said, I'd spend the money on the porting before camming it up - just swapping the cams tends to shove the power farther up the rev-range without adding any torque. You end up with a better pub-boasting number, but not a quicker car in the real world.
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Post by a4drk » Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:51 pm

mckeann wrote:
GregR wrote: Fitting cams is (obviously) a head off job,

No its not :roll: :lol:
Thats what i thought....... ??

I thought you took the "rocker" cover off & it was in there some where? - under the tappets......
Sorry, no 100% on this...

:shock:
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Post by BiggestNizzy » Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:56 pm

Warning Highly technical *
  • remove belts and guff
  • remove rocker cover
  • remove oil carrying bit that bolts on top
  • lift cams out
there is slightly more to it than that but thats the jist of it

*I lied about it being technical
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Rich H
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Post by Rich H » Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:10 pm

:lol:

If you fit verniers its a bit more technical to set them up properly. (Mr Shug did mine, with a vernier caliper and a piece of brass rod...!) Without verniers its fairly straight forward swap.

It will take some mechanical nouse and a fair bit of bravery, but you can work methodically through the instructions and you could get it done on your own in half a day or so.

That said you may as well get the seals from Rover and the camshafts from Piper, you could then do the job for half the price. Even better as GregR says get a port job done, should be possible within budget.
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Post by Sanjøy » Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:39 pm

Robin, anyone rolling roaded your "specials" ?
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Post by robin » Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:10 am

Yes, and as it happens one has just come into stock at SLS if anyone is interested, speak to Ali.

Campbell's car made 147 IIRC on standard everything with just the head work - identical spec to the head just being sent up now.

I think there's still a set of cams in stock, but Greg's car isn't 100% happy with those cams on it - reminds me Greg, I need to take a proper look at that to decide whether we should revert your car to standard cams (I'll refund the cash, of course) or whether we should try and make it work with the cams you have.

So in the short term I would recommend a campbell spec car - it really is just everything you want from a road car that's used on track from time to time.

Cheers,
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Rich H
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Post by Rich H » Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:11 am

How much does a port job work out to at the mo?
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Post by Sanjøy » Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:48 pm

robin wrote:Campbell's car made 147 IIRC on standard everything with just the head work
lb/ft ?
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Post by robin » Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:57 pm

Campbell's dastek runs:

before and after

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Rich H
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Post by Rich H » Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:16 pm

Robin:
Any idea why there is a dip at 3.5k in the Torque?
Is that inlet manifold design?

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Post by robin » Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:54 am

I don't think it's caused by the inlet manifold directly - the alloy plenum has a similar dip, and it varies car to car.

I suspect it's a function of cam profile and timing.

Campbell's vs mine

Here you can see my car in orange - it's got the same cams but has alloy plenum and much bigger valves and more gas flow. As you can see it's actually worse than Campbell's across most of the rev range (not sure why, possibly down to standard exhaust back box on my car, more likely because of stupid alloy plenum, poor port matching and perhaps incorrect cam timing (no verniers)).

Anyway, point is that it too has a dip, though a little higher up the rev range (I wouldn't read too much into the exact position and size of the dip - remember the chart is only plotted and captured at 500RPM intervals, so both cars could have a very similar looking curve in reality).

One advantage of the hub-attached torque sensing "rolling road" that I visited with Hans Baumhardt (LOT racing driver) over xmas is that you get very closely spaced samples. We could probably persuade DASTEK to do a run with higher resolution capture, but they're very careful not to give you the raw data - not sure why they care :-(

What's really happening in the engine, I think, is that 0-3,000 RPM the torque increases with engine speed as the inlet duration becomes better matched to the piston speed - there is less and less air/fuel being spat out on the compression stroke while the inlet valve is still open, so cylinder fills better.

3,000-3,500 torque is dropping because the effect of the inlet duration has peaked; the cylinder can no longer fill in the time available so torque drops off.

3,500-5,500 RPM the torque increases/plateaus as the overlap on the cams comes into play (the exhaust scavenging is helping to charge the cylinder). If you had no overlap at all, torque would continue to fall.

Changing the cam timing to increase overlap (advance the inlet a little) might make scavenging come into play a bit sooner, but would cost torque lower down I think (you would push exhaust gas into the plenum which would then be recycled thus reducing torque). However, each car is unique and there is a good degree of variance in the cam timing, so a vernier to fine tune it would make sense - basically advance it until torque drops off, then retard a tad. Similarly the exhaust cam could be tuned - retard it until torque drops off, then advance it a tad.

The best way of nulling out the dip is probably to fit a better exhaust manifold that would increase the scavenging effect - this would probably give a few extra BHP somewhere in the rev range and help pull up torque below 3,500RPM. It would have no effect on performance below 3,000RPM I think as the cylinder can empty and fill completely in the available cycle time.

There's a lot to be said for continuously variable cam timing!

Cheers,
Robin
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