Ultimate K series

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Mikie711
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Ultimate K series

Post by Mikie711 » Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:02 am

Call me mad, to much money, not enough sense what ever but those that know me will not be surprised by this. My intention is over this winter to build what I consider to be the ultimate K series bottom end.
Why ? well the race engine I have in the car, which I built last year, is good very very good but above a certain RPM it suffers from some serious vibration which is going to impact on this engines longevity. Having now spoken to a number of people, most of the usual suspects i.e. Mr Andrews, Fabry, Smith among others plus some not so usual's I think I have enough info to set about building this engine.
A quick run down of the spec a with an explanation of why for each part looks like this.

Block, new or used haven't decided this one yet mainly due to my experience with the previous engine. Arguments both ways. For and old block the pro's and con's are:
Pro's
Thermally stable not so pron to size changes with temperature.
Easier and cheaper to get hold of.

Con's
Block twist
Liner heights
Bearing tunnel straightness
Condition.

Based on all that it'll probably be a brand new engine casing as I will also be using a brand new crank I think it makes more sense but feel free to comment either way. As a foot note I will not be going the scholar route. It's far to hit or miss for me and they certainly have questionable customer support if it does all go south.

Crank will be brand new mainly due to the constraints place by Steve at Vibration Free for tungsten insertion. I already have a suitable crank and this will be sent on Wednesday to kick off the whole process.

Rods will be steel Arrow or if I can get a replacement for the one that got damaged in my previous engine, the one that went bang running it in on the rollers, then Farndon. Mainly for strength. There is no real empirical evidence that the standard rod isn't strong enough but why take the chance.

Pistons will be Omega forged, primarily because I know the pockets are deep enough for the amount of lift the cams I use generate. These coupled with standard 2nd and oil control rings but with a total seal top ring.

Liners from QED, the banded type. I used AE liners in the current engine and have had no problems with them but feel the added strength provided by these won't hurt although they are about twice the price.

Water pump from Elise Parts there uprated one has done a fine job in the current engine and for no other reason that it gives piece of mind.

Flywheel/clutch. This is the subject I talked to a few people about, in part due to the lack of info about what to use. The main stream light weight flywheels aren't that light by all accounts shaving maybe 3 or 4kg's off the original but still 11 1/2" in diameter. Now by adding 2kg of tungsten to the crank I needed to loose to loose 2 kg somewhere else and the only place to do this is in the flywheel clutch area. So I will be fitting a 7 1/4" clutch and suitable flywheel. The total weight of both of these is 3.3kg. A light weight steel flywheel is about 6kg add to that a 9 1/2 standard clutch and cover it's about 10 -11kg so a significant weight saving more so because it's spinning. It requires fitting a different starter motor, stepped to catch the starter ring gear but still has the reluctor ring the crank position sensor needs. Ark Racing is the company that make it and comes as a kit for the K series, at a price.

Oil system This is a bit of a head scratcher> As I see it I have two choices, one is to stick with the original oil pump and fit a steel gear in place of the sintered original which can come apart at high RPM. That coupled with the baffled sump which I already have and a windage/scrapper plate. The second is to dry sump the engine. Not many people seem to go down this route, I have no idea if there is any disadvantages to using dry sumping or just that it is prohibitively expensive. It is used by Caterham in some of their cars but that might be because of the longitudinal engine as opposed to the Elise's transverse engine. The problem with the first option is it's hard to increase the flow through the engine, bit hit or miss stretching the relief valve spring which only really changes the pressure and not the flow. Current engines oil pressure can get quite low once the oil is heated up above 110 deg c so looking at ways of increasing oil flow through the engine as the oil thins. Might just be the millers oil I use so might try swapping to something else and seeing if it makes any difference.

The engine will keep it's original crank pulley as there is no advantage to be gained changing it and it still helps tune out some vibration even though the internals have changed. The head will be the same Sabre Heads prepared VVC converted one I ran this year, all be it stripped and checked and keeping the 1444 cams etc.

In a nut shell that's the plan photo's of all the shinny bits once they start appearing as usual with updates along the way. Worth noting all of the above has come from many different sources and is nothing new, all been done before but few if any have pulled it all together in one thread complete with pictures so I thought why the hell not.

Comments, suggestions, ideas or mickey taking wanted/expected feel free to throw your 2p in the mix.

Why am I doing this, simple answer, because I can :thumbsup
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meatball
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Re: Ultimate K series

Post by meatball » Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:07 am

Here we go again!

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Gourlay83
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Re: Ultimate K series

Post by Gourlay83 » Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:12 am

Thats quite a shopping list Mike.

Best of luck and you know where i am if you need a hand with anything.

Cheers
Alan
"Chicks dig scars and I measure mine in feet"

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Mikie711
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Re: Ultimate K series

Post by Mikie711 » Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:16 am

meatball wrote:Here we go again!
Yep

Couple of pic's to kick off first is the donor crank, picked mainly due to it's lack of counter weight drillings.

Image

Starter and flywheel combo.

Image
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Stu160
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Re: Ultimate K series

Post by Stu160 » Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:23 am

Hi Mike

I can help you out with the block, fully doweled, and liner heights sorted, If you can get someone to lihe hone the crank path, we can also skim all the faces.

I also have a twin plate 7 1/4 clutch as well, not sure if I will ever use it, I have made a few flywheels as well in the past, but am to busy these days to make any more, for now.
Not sure how things are for starters to go with them, we have done one prototype casing and starter, not sure if it was ever used, I think there was also a special starter in development to do away with the need for this.

I am doing one to a similar spec for my car, but time is always a problem.

Best of luck.

Stu
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tut
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Re: Ultimate K series

Post by tut » Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:43 am

Should keep you busy over Winter Mike and its always interesting to read and see your build up process.

No advice on your components though, but looks as if you have already spoken to the experts in the field. Have you had a word with Scuffers yet?

<BG>

tut

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robin
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Re: Ultimate K series

Post by robin » Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:49 am

Excellent!

On the flywheel front, I'm sure you've done your homework, but:

Are you sure they add 2kg of Titanium to the crank - it seems a lot - but I know nothing about it so probably right if that's what Steve told you ;-)

By reducing the diameter of the flywheel you reduce the rotational inertia by the square of the change in radius - i.e. even if the mass of the flywheel remained the same, you're dropping by a factor of about 2.5 in this case (11.5" to 7.25"). Add to that the change in mass to about 1/3 the original (light weight) mass and you have a drop in rotational inertia to about 1/8th the original. OK, so the crank is heavier by 2kg, but that is at a distance very close to the rotational centre line so will only contribute a small amount to the rotational inertia - assuming that 2kg is about 5" from the centre of rotation, I compute at the first order of approximation you'll have 1/6th of the rotational inertia you had before. That might be a good thing as it will sap less torque from the engine when accelerating, but it will be a pig to make idle and will be very easy to stall. Put another way, to store the same energy in your new flywheel setup you would need to idle at 2,500RPM instead of 1,000RPM. Of course that's just school boy fisics - in the real world there are many other factors (e.g. effective compression ratio, cam timing, low end torque ...) that will effect how well it idles and how easy it is to pull away.

Cheers,
Robin
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Stu160
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Re: Ultimate K series

Post by Stu160 » Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:52 am

robin wrote:Excellent!

On the flywheel front, I'm sure you've done your homework, but:

Are you sure they add 2kg of Titanium to the crank - it seems a lot - but I know nothing about it so probably right if that's what Steve told you ;-)

By reducing the diameter of the flywheel you reduce the rotational inertia by the square of the change in radius - i.e. even if the mass of the flywheel remained the same, you're dropping by a factor of about 2.5 in this case (11.5" to 7.25"). Add to that the change in mass to about 1/3 the original (light weight) mass and you have a drop in rotational inertia to about 1/8th the original. OK, so the crank is heavier by 2kg, but that is at a distance very close to the rotational centre line so will only contribute a small amount to the rotational inertia - assuming that 2kg is about 5" from the centre of rotation, I compute at the first order of approximation you'll have 1/6th of the rotational inertia you had before. That might be a good thing as it will sap less torque from the engine when accelerating, but it will be a pig to make idle and will be very easy to stall. Put another way, to store the same energy in your new flywheel setup you would need to idle at 2,500RPM instead of 1,000RPM. Of course that's just school boy fisics - in the real world there are many other factors (e.g. effective compression ratio, cam timing, low end torque ...) that will effect how well it idles and how easy it is to pull away.

Cheers,
Robin
All that on a saturday morning Robin, :D I was just wanting to know where Mike got the starter and flywheel :lol:

Stu
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Mikie711
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Re: Ultimate K series

Post by Mikie711 » Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:00 am

This from Steve

"We insert tungsten rods into the 8 counterweights to remove the
considerable bending loads induced at the high revs. In fact the standard 1.8 is
producing 968 kgf at 8,200 revs, which is nearly 2 tonnes at the center of the
crank !"

The 2 kg is what I read somewhere and might be a guesstimate rather than actual which I would assume is a closely guarded secret. Aware of the potential idle problem but as my current set up runs a light weight flywheel and idles better than most standard cars I don't think it'll be a issue, at least one that can't be lessened by mapping.

Stu Ark Racing are the people that make the flywheel and starter 0190 260 2881. Nick Beere is the guy you need.
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Stu160
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Re: Ultimate K series

Post by Stu160 » Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:02 am

Cheers Mike, will give them a call.

Stu
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tut
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Re: Ultimate K series

Post by tut » Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:05 am

"Of course that's just school boy fisics......."

Yeah right, not from the school that I went to though.

tut

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Gourlay83
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Re: Ultimate K series

Post by Gourlay83 » Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:15 am

"My intention is over this winter to build what I consider to be the ultimate K series"

Mike, they already exsist ! Its called a Honda.

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Alan
"Chicks dig scars and I measure mine in feet"

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mwmackenzie
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Re: Ultimate K series

Post by mwmackenzie » Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:15 am

:popcorn Geez Mike you've only just finished the last one :shock: Sounds awesome mate I'll be keeping a close eye on this, love your work fella :thumbsup

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Mikie711
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Re: Ultimate K series

Post by Mikie711 » Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:21 am

Honda's are cheating, anybody can do that, gez even B & Q are going to start selling DIY kits soon I here. :wink:
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tut
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Re: Ultimate K series

Post by tut » Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:30 am

Yeah but they work Mike, 8600rpm out of the box, and of course you can drive them as opposed to working on them.

Of course I realise that is not what you are after or your goal in life, and not the way to go for you as you would be bored. Plus what the hell would you do with all your money?

tut

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