V6 Elises and other such fun

[OlberJ]

Hi there folks, i thought i'd put up a bit of a post here to introduce myself, what i've got at the minute and what i'm planning.

To give you a bit of background, i've been hooked on mid engined cars for quite a long time now and after weighing up the costs and outright result of a mid engined 205 GTi i decided i was going to start out with an Mr2 instead. I've had a few of them over the years, all 3 marks, and a few of them have become rather special. I now own and run a garage in Central Scotland where we offer engine conversions, amongst all the regular work. We're mostly Mr2 based at the moment but looking to branch out into the world of Elises next. It's a logical step.

So what i thought i'd do is show you the current demonstrator build, what we do with each conversion and pick your brains on the next step.


Here's the Mk3 Mr2 Roadster, i picked up with engine trouble, fairly cheaply.



The standard 1zz engines have a tendancy to munch the pre-cats, knock the bottom end out and leave you with a car James Bond would be proud of if he were being pursued by whoever was trying to take over the world next. Good news for us folk with grander ideas (on the car, not taking over the world. Yet.)

So the options i had with it :

1) Another 1zz - Doomed to failure in a similar way as the 1st, no improvement
2) A 2zz swap - Fairly straight forward, improved engine, gearing, response and VVTLi
3) An Audi V8 - Still at prototype stage, expensive to do in comparison, like my licence too much
4) A Toyota V6 - Tried and tested swap, fairly involved but with excellent results and a rather nice soundtrack.

Number 4 it was then.

My last Mk1 i did a similar swap with and took an everyday 120bhp Mk1 and turned it into a bit of a beast. It sounded great, pulled like a train and confused a hell of a lot of people.




The engine used there was a 190bhp 3VZFE from a Toyota Camry. Iron block, very strong and very torquey. It was a massive improvement on the 4age in every way. True it did weigh a bit more but the extra power and response more than made up for it.

Thankfully Toyota decided their next V6 would be an all alloy affair, and this is exactly what i've chosen for the Mk3. 3.0 V6, 205bhp 210lb/ft out of the box and ~170kg's. At the previous garage i worked for, we put one first of all into a Mk1 and were amazed at the complete lack of weight transfer that occurred. It felt just like a standard engine in there through the corners, and when you put your foot down, full go from 2,500rpm all the way to 6.5k.

So here's my own engine, being transplanted into the Mk3. Pictures tell a thousand words so here's a few thousand words.







The full setup is :

1MZFE 3.0 V6 all alloy
F1 Chromoly Lightened Flywheel
Hybrid Clutch with 6 paddle plate
S54 gearbox with Celica Final Drive and Mk3 LSD
Apexi Induction
Genuine F355 Exhaust system

And it sounds, like this :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv0o4OD4a-Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0u3_8Vl ... re=channel

The results with this swap mean that again, the car feels like normal through the corners but as soon as you've clipped that apex you're off like a scalded dug.

The engines themselves are pulled from Toyota Camry's which can be picked up fairly cheaply, stripped, cleaned, painted and rebuilt with new headgaskets and seals. They go on for 200K miles in most cases. Some more. Very over engineered which means very reliable for us.

I'll be having the car weighed in the next few weeks to see exactly what the figures come out at. i'm hoping for it to be still sub 1 tonne.


And now, onto the next stage. I'll be keeping the Roadster as a demonstrator but i'm on the look out for an S1 to do the same conversion in. Now i know a lot of people are worried about adding extra weight to an Elise and feel it may ruin what makes it such a good car to drive, and it is something that plays on my mind, until it's done though, we're never going to know. Everything that has come out of our experience with the Mr2's though bodes very well for taking these swaps to an Elise.

Swapping one of these into an S2 would be easier, given the engine and box currently used, but i like the look of the S1 and there's no point doing something if it's too easy is there?

So what's everyone's thoughts on this? You lot seem pretty clued up on, and have a good knowledge of what your cars are like. Do you think it would be worthwhile or ruin the car completely? Anyone thinking, yes please i'll have one tomorrow?

I'd like to offer anyone considering it a drive out in the roadster, see what you think for yourself. If you do decide you want to be the 1st to get one, we'll obviously look after you for being the 1st.

There's also the chance to have an Evora 2GR engine installed. A bit more costly but you're looking at around 280bhp out of the box as opposed to the 205bhp of the 1MZ. How bonkers do you feel like going is the only question there

Hopefully the stuff above tickles your taste buds and i would like to get plenty of feedback on the idea. I will make it out to the next meet and you are all welcome to drop by the garage any time you like.


Cheers,
Olie

[Shug]

Looking forward to hear how it goes. Not all S2s are Yotas, by the way, so don't get burnt if you do decide you want the easy option - they had the same Rover install as the S1 for years before the 111R came out with the first Yota engined example.

170kg is a sh*tload more than a K series - dependant on who you believe, up to 100kg more! Or is that weight inc the gearbox? In a car that only weighs 750ish kg in total, that's a big percentage. Still, I'm sure it'll be an interesting challenge and would be really keen to try a back-to-back when you eventually get it sorted. Will sound good at least.

Proof will be in the pudding, so get baking

[StiflerMR2]

I used to have a mk3 Roadster (with removed pre-cats) and loved the thing, that V6 through the 355 box sounds amazing!

All the best with the S1 engine conversions, will be very interesting to see how it goes

-Mark.

[roadboy]

Interesting project.

TBH it will all come down to cost as to whether it is worth doing or not. If you cna do these for 5 grand fully fitted then you will probably get some interest. If its gonna be closer to 10k then there are better options out there already for that sort of money.

I would love a V6 in an Elise but so far there has been nothing done that produces good enough power, without adding too much weight.

As Shug says, 170kg is very heavy to stick in the back of an Elise.

Dan

p.s. I think it will be 10 times more complicated than the MR2 swap. Good luck with it though. Its always good to see someone trying something different.

[OlberJ]

Cheers for the input folks.

Yes it'll be more difficult, they always are 1st time round. Things like the driveshafts, whether or not it needs a standalone, the engine chosen etc etc could all add up. There's usually a way to work around and get the same results with a little lateral thinking though. I custom make a lot of parts for the conversion myself so that certainly helps keep things lower.

Cost wise, dependant on the parts chosen you're probably looking ~£6/7k.

Good point about the other options, i do have a K20 sat at the garage which will be getting put into something soon, love the engine but the lack of low down torque is the bit that puts me off. Again, would be great to have one of these back to back with the Honda'd elises for a comparison.

I'm a stickler for the way cars sound, V6 is a big part of that for me. For the balance between weight, power and noise i really reckon that this is the engine of choice.

[tut]

I have two S1 Elises with Honda engines Olie, one N/A and one S/C. Guaranteed that you would impressed with the 300 HP one, pulls from 25mph in 6th so no lack of torque. Weight of the conversion is only 15kg more than the standard car.

tut

[OlberJ]

What's the actual output, bhp and lb/ft of torque for the Honda engines tut, have you had them RR'd at all?

EDIT - Here's what we're looking at for a 1MZ:

[roadboy]

The lack of low down torque with the Honda is not an issue in something as light as the Elise. Have you driven one? You definitely should if you haven 't.

I know what you mean about the noise though. For me it's the biggest let down of the Homda conversion as a well sorted K series sounds much better on the go.

Dan

[roadboy]

For Honda power outputs have a look here for a comparison of three main configurations.

http://www.dyno-plot.co.uk/dyno/dynoplo ... /index.htm

Dan

[OlberJ]

Cheers for those, interesting to see laid out next to each other. With a bit of headwork on the 1MZ it's easy to get another few bhp out of it so i guess it's really down to weight v's torque.

Are there any honda'd S2's about up here for a fairly direct comparison with the V6 roadster? I imagine it'd piss all over me in the twisties (driver and car talent).

[jj]

I have owned standard K/ VHPD K / N/A yota and NA Honda and the honda was the best by miles. Out of the lot it broke the most though (only ever conversion-type issues), and I would guess any conversion especially one that nobody has done before is going to be "challenging" to live with shall we say.

I cant think of anyone with a honda-powered car in the central belt, you should have asked a few months back before mine was sold

[OlberJ]

No worries, i'll just have to take a trip and go visit sumone, probably Dan seeing as i've looked at his website 1000 times when i lived in Durham and thought "That's just up the road, i'll go have a nosey"

Can i ask what went wrong with the conversion parts JJ? Was it stress problems due to the extra oomph or just gremlins?

[tut]

Never bothered with a R/R Olie, I doubt if the map could be bettered, they are both JDM engines, the S/C has the DC5 manifold, but there is another 30hp to go if I change the crankshaft pulley to the larger UK Type-R one, and the S/C pulley from 3.4" to 3.2" so that it gives the 9psi that the kit was designed for.

tut

[OlberJ]

Again, supercharging is a route we've gone down before with the V6's, resulting in about 280bhp from a 5psi TRD charger and they're fairly awfull, hairdryers of blowers.

There's a new batch of chargers in the pipeline that should give 350ish from a standard setup and can be intercooled. But then again you're adding more weight. That's why i prefer the V6 to the 2.0 tubby, it's lighter and is obviously a better starting point.

I need to get a set of hook scales and find out the exact weight of these engines.

[OlberJ]

On the subject of driveshafts, are the S1 and S2 hubs, the splines etc, the same or completely different? If so that would make things a step easier for me.

Another little video of why i like this engine so much : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVkqCFhO-k0