Scottish Elises

OK

Time to come at this from the other direction. - following the recent honda conversion thread, it seems some still think the honda is a cost effective reliable and genuine 220bhp option that the K series cannot match on all 3 points.

So time to prove that wrong.

This therefore will be a blog on a build of a Sport 160 engine to beat the honda conversion
on cost,
on weight in the car [by50/60kg[
on reliability
and gonna try and get it as near or better for power and torque as I can to your average 220bhp, 155lbft Honda K20 on stock cams.

- now before I go any further, I have no idea whether I can make that from a 160, given it will retain all OEM parts ie cam, and plenum/single52mm TB that make it a 160 Sport engine.

I reckon I can, but clearly no one has, - probably no one has tried to do it before? - and I may well be asking for a big fall trying, but that's the target.


the point of this engine is -

A/ it is coming to Scotland so hopefully you will all drive it this year - that includes you MCKean

B/ it's going into a rare 160 Sport S1 and the owner does not want to trash the cars value by putting in a wroong engine - ie honda k20

C/it will be thoroughly interesting to see where it will come out....... given this engine will benefit from all my work over the last 6 years in terms of build method and all the software analysis I have to get the induction and exhaust working together..... which will be a first on a VVC type plenum.

D/ the only non commercially available 'KingK' parts it will use will be those I deem essential to make it reliable, and that will not include any part that delivers power or torque bar airbox/filter car side of TB, and exhaust.

E/ pics, software prediction, build pics, and final engine weights, all costs WILL BE POSTED.


FINALLY - I am not interested in building engines like this.... this is being done to prove a point - some of the parts of a 160 Sport engine , namely the cams, and plenum [volume and design[ are so poor that they are massively power and torque sapping, and no one with the brief to cane a hondaK20 would ever start out to design or use them -


- so this thread will be followed by another for a 'KingK' engine - similar in spec except that all parts, - except block, K16 head and sump castings, plus crank will be my own developed parts. This will mean designing a new cam specifically to work on a 1.8L engine and a plenum, and a complete new plenum to use a Jenvey 60mm single TB of the type I used on my Touring car engine, this engine will represent a totally reliable, keep your boot S1 Elise engine to hopefully trash any na Honda in any S1/S2, and will aim to achieve similar numbers to my touring car. It will have a separate thread.


here we go......

Can't you just do a Honda conversion and then map it so it doesn't idle?

fair play for putting your money where your mouth is. I look forward to the blog. Hopefully the mods will keep it clear of all the 'just stick a honda in it' posts!

oops! too late!

graeme wrote:Can't you just do a Honda conversion and then map it so it doesn't idle?

no


because hondas are badly engineered

massively too heavy

run rough

made of poor quality parts particularly piston/rod/crank

and diminish massively the value of your car especially a 160 0r 135 Sport


I hope YOU will drive this and compare it back to back with a honda converted car....

Dipper wrote:fair play for putting your money where your mouth is. I look forward to the blog. Hopefully the mods will keep it clear of all the 'just stick a honda in it' posts!

Well am hoping the result will speak for itself, but that depends on roadboy/Mckean etc driving this one..

Had to be done.

I'm quite interested in this really. Part of me mourns the loss of a perfectly good S160, but who doesn't love a good build thread?

Even though I have a Honda Simon, and had very good reasons for using it, I look forward to your build.

We all realize your K knowledge and experience, but there is nothing like seeing the product in the flesh, and it will be interesting to see if you can achieve your objective.

We all like to follow a build thread with photos, and as our members have many more K engine cars than Hondas, it will be more applicable.

tut

tut wrote:Even though I have a Honda Simon, and had very good reasons for using it, I look forward to your build.

We all realize your K knowledge and experience, but there is nothing like seeing the product in the flesh, and it will be interesting to see if you can achieve your objective.

We all like to follow a build thread with photos, and as our members have many more K engine cars than Hondas, it will be more applicable.

tut

Cool Tut

I know you will drive this

I hope you wiull drive the plenum KingK engine too which is going to Ollie at Phoenix Motorsport, not that far from you.

Puzzled as to how you will be able to up the power output without changing the cam, throttle body and inlets.

Will it be a 2.0/2.1 + crank and pistons, higher rev limit? Look forward to reading more. Any idea of a time scale?

+1 glad to see this thread and the outcome regardless of the result to be honest. I don't think that anyone on here really gives a stuff what engine they have in their car it is the end user experience that counts.

Now this might sound antagonistic but it is not meant to be. When do you think your commercial engine will be available as there will be peeps out there considering conversions etc now and to have proof about to land on their door step in this build as a POC it could sway them.

What gasket are you planning on using on the 160 ?

S

i dont mind offering my na honda'd s2 for comparisons. back to back dyno and weighing etc.

philthy wrote:Puzzled as to how you will be able to up the power output without changing the cam, throttle body and inlets.

Will it be a 2.0/2.1 + crank and pistons, higher rev limit? Look forward to reading more. Any idea of a time scale?

GOOD QUESTION!!!!
JUSTthe sort of idea that needs to be thoroughly discussed and proven - one way or the other on this thread!


OK

SO the cam is a very very poor design, it has massive acceleration at the lift roots which is bad for seat and valve life, but poor acceleration through the ramp - which means slow opening, and therefore poor torque and ultimate power - why would someone design a profile like that - thats absolutely beyond me

it also has limited lift and therefore does not have the potential to benefit from for bigger valves as much as one might like-

but the idea is to build an engine with parts that have been around for an age and show what can be done - plus to keep it a genuine 160 engine



- how can the engine better 200/220 /maybe more? horses????


well


1/ build the thing right so you're not losing hand over fist with friction and poor gas sealing - sounds basic but read the what I don't like what gets done to the K thread.

2/ use all the software design potential I have to match dimensions in the inlet port to valve AND exhaust port dimensions - there is some very bad porting going on - see same K thread

3/ design filter holders to act as resonator boxes and overcome small plenum size

4/ design an exhaust that is in sync with the port/valve and cam - in so doing - its called tuning, but not in the sense that the word is so often misused, tuning like you tune one piano key to the next and the next etc, you in effect supercharge the engine without the cost/weight/expense of a supercharger.

In F1 engines for instance the volumetric efficiency is about 130% - genuinely supercharged, its just that you need revs to do it.

And its bloody satisfying when it works

- butas I said this is not so much a work in progress as an idea in progress.

Dipper wrote:i dont mind offering my na honda'd s2 for comparisons. back to back dyno and weighing etc.

Excellent

you are on. - much appreciated!

Sanjoy wrote:+1 glad to see this thread and the outcome regardless of the result to be honest. I don't think that anyone on here really gives a stuff what engine they have in their car it is the end user experience that counts.

Now this might sound antagonistic but it is not meant to be. When do you think your commercial engine will be available as there will be peeps out there considering conversions etc now and to have proof about to land on their door step in this build as a POC it could sway them.

What gasket are you planning on using on the 160 ?

S

You mean the King K plenum engine?

hopefully this year

but I have 8 engines im my workshop now

plus this new 160 project

then I have to design a plenum, run the software,
design a new cam, ditto
and build plus test the engine

developed KingK fully bridged pistons, flywheel, liners, pumps, rods, OEM crank, verniers, valves, springs, retainers, oil seals, guides, baffles, windage plates, billet clutches, resonant chamber designs are all made on my shelf and ready to go today.


oh and I have to make a living too -

plus am actually moving house, workshops, and studio in the next few weeks

,..... so dunno, this year for the 160 definitely, hopefully for the bigger engine too.