S3 suspension options

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rgordonw
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Re: S3 suspension options

Post by rgordonw » Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:26 pm

My car had the Sport Pack which included uprated springs and Bilsteins (non adjustable). With all the front camber shims removed handling on road was great and not too bad at KH where you could trail break to counter the understeer. On faster tracks where you want to power through corners (esses at Croft) understeer was a total pain so I decided to invest in Hoffman spec Nitron NTR46s with 400/550 spring rates. Were better but I was disappointed in the improvement considering the cost. Improvements came with fitting an adjustable ARB and 205 AD08Rs on the front. Car now feels much better balanced. With hindsight I wish I had fitted the ARB and 205s first.

Gordon

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mckeann
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Re: S3 suspension options

Post by mckeann » Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:25 pm

Gordon, you need to go a little further than removing all the camber shims. I forget the name of the part, but basically You can machine a little bit away from where the camber shims bolt in. Not the upright side, the other side that connects to the steering rack.
Take a little bit material from there to allow closer to 2 deg negative camber. If it’s too much you can then add camber shims back in

Rosssco
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Re: S3 suspension options

Post by Rosssco » Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:45 pm

mckeann wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:25 pm
Gordon, you need to go a little further than removing all the camber shims. I forget the name of the part, but basically You can machine a little bit away from where the camber shims bolt in. Not the upright side, the other side that connects to the steering rack.
Take a little bit material from there to allow closer to 2 deg negative camber. If it’s too much you can then add camber shims back in
I think you mean the steering arm. You can buy replacement steering arms which are made to allow increased camber, e.g.:

https://www.eliseparts.com/products/sho ... ring-arms/
VX220 SC
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BigD
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Re: S3 suspension options

Post by BigD » Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:05 pm

rgordonw wrote:My car had the Sport Pack which included uprated springs and Bilsteins (non adjustable). With all the front camber shims removed handling on road was great and not too bad at KH where you could trail break to counter the understeer. On faster tracks where you want to power through corners (esses at Croft) understeer was a total pain so I decided to invest in Hoffman spec Nitron NTR46s with 400/550 spring rates. Were better but I was disappointed in the improvement considering the cost. Improvements came with fitting an adjustable ARB and 205 AD08Rs on the front. Car now feels much better balanced. With hindsight I wish I had fitted the ARB and 205s first.

Gordon
I did the ARB on mine before the suspension and the improvement was very good. A little awkward to fit and I think I did mine when the clam was off.

Ended up changing to nitrons too and it was very good then and not harsh on the road at all. In fact I thought it was less crashy than the bilsteins on the road.

Toy’d with the quantum zeros but ended up with nitrons as there was a group buy so they were much cheaper. Would definitely get more nitrons and even if what you get are too stiff on the road it’s easy and cheap to put less stiff springs in again. Springs are cheap for coilovers.


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mckeann
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Re: S3 suspension options

Post by mckeann » Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:21 am

Rosssco wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:45 pm
mckeann wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:25 pm
Gordon, you need to go a little further than removing all the camber shims. I forget the name of the part, but basically You can machine a little bit away from where the camber shims bolt in. Not the upright side, the other side that connects to the steering rack.
Take a little bit material from there to allow closer to 2 deg negative camber. If it’s too much you can then add camber shims back in
I think you mean the steering arm. You can buy replacement steering arms which are made to allow increased camber, e.g.:

https://www.eliseparts.com/products/sho ... ring-arms/

steering arms. That’s the puppy. I just machined mine and made a huge difference

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C7Steve
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Re: S3 suspension options

Post by C7Steve » Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:04 pm

mckeann wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:21 am
Rosssco wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:45 pm
mckeann wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:25 pm
Gordon, you need to go a little further than removing all the camber shims. I forget the name of the part, but basically You can machine a little bit away from where the camber shims bolt in. Not the upright side, the other side that connects to the steering rack.
Take a little bit material from there to allow closer to 2 deg negative camber. If it’s too much you can then add camber shims back in
I think you mean the steering arm. You can buy replacement steering arms which are made to allow increased camber, e.g.:

https://www.eliseparts.com/products/sho ... ring-arms/

steering arms. That’s the puppy. I just machined mine and made a huge difference
Neil,

What is the negative effect of doing this?


Steve.

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alicrozier
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Re: S3 suspension options

Post by alicrozier » Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:13 pm

It can compromise the straight line braking...
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mckeann
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Re: S3 suspension options

Post by mckeann » Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:14 pm

If you keep things sensible, the drawbacks are limited, but as with anything, push to the extremes and it’ll be more nervous and tramline on the roads. It’ll wear out the inner edges of the front tyres faster than the outside, but usually the front tyres go off with age before this happens anyway so no big deal. If you go very extreme on camber and have stuff springs fitted too, you can find the car locks up slightly earlier in wet conditions where you don’t have the same body roll and tyre contact as a flatter tyre.

Standard camber is about 0 deg. -1 degree is about the max you can get with an S2 without shimming. I prefer -2 degree. Think my S1 was -2.5 degrees but that was very very VERY, erm, what’s the word, erm awesome.

Rosssco
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Re: S3 suspension options

Post by Rosssco » Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:02 pm

For anyone interested in steering arms, there's a group buy on legoelise.org for a pair that allows more camber (plus things like rose-jointed steering ends):

http://www.vx220.org.uk/forums/topic/14 ... group-buy/
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C7Steve
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Re: S3 suspension options

Post by C7Steve » Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:22 pm

alicrozier wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:13 pm
It can compromise the straight line braking...
mckeann wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:14 pm
If you keep things sensible, the drawbacks are limited, but as with anything, push to the extremes and it’ll be more nervous and tramline on the roads. It’ll wear out the inner edges of the front tyres faster than the outside, but usually the front tyres go off with age before this happens anyway so no big deal. If you go very extreme on camber and have stuff springs fitted too, you can find the car locks up slightly earlier in wet conditions where you don’t have the same body roll and tyre contact as a flatter tyre.

Standard camber is about 0 deg. -1 degree is about the max you can get with an S2 without shimming. I prefer -2 degree. Think my S1 was -2.5 degrees but that was very very VERY, erm, what’s the word, erm awesome.
Thanks for that Ali and Neil. :thumbsup

Trying to build up some knowledge. :lol:

Do you have to make changes at the rear to balance any additional negative camber changes at the front?

Sorry for the thread drift.


Steve

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Mike Scib
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Re: S3 suspension options

Post by Mike Scib » Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:26 pm

Your S2 wanted to drift in a straight line, not very confident inspiring on the road!

My S2 runs -1.2 on the front with the ABS bracket removed and -2.5 on the rear. Works will IMO on road and track with nice even tyre wear.

Am I not right in saying, if its not scrubbing the outside edge of tyres, there's little point in running more (less) camber?
mckeann wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:14 pm
If you keep things sensible, the drawbacks are limited, but as with anything, push to the extremes and it’ll be more nervous and tramline on the roads. It’ll wear out the inner edges of the front tyres faster than the outside, but usually the front tyres go off with age before this happens anyway so no big deal. If you go very extreme on camber and have stuff springs fitted too, you can find the car locks up slightly earlier in wet conditions where you don’t have the same body roll and tyre contact as a flatter tyre.

Standard camber is about 0 deg. -1 degree is about the max you can get with an S2 without shimming. I prefer -2 degree. Think my S1 was -2.5 degrees but that was very very VERY, erm, what’s the word, erm awesome.
alicrozier wrote:As Robin said, need to be comfortable and confident to push right up to the limit - sometimes you only find the limit by going beyond it...
(that's why I think Mike will do fine, that and his lack of imagination). :roll: :lol:

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BigD
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S3 suspension options

Post by BigD » Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:55 pm

Mike Scib wrote:Your S2 wanted to drift in a straight line, not very confident inspiring on the road!

My S2 runs -1.2 on the front with the ABS bracket removed and -2.5 on the rear. Works will IMO on road and track with nice even tyre wear.

Am I not right in saying, if its not scrubbing the outside edge of tyres, there's little point in running more (less) camber?
mckeann wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:14 pm
If you keep things sensible, the drawbacks are limited, but as with anything, push to the extremes and it’ll be more nervous and tramline on the roads. It’ll wear out the inner edges of the front tyres faster than the outside, but usually the front tyres go off with age before this happens anyway so no big deal. If you go very extreme on camber and have stuff springs fitted too, you can find the car locks up slightly earlier in wet conditions where you don’t have the same body roll and tyre contact as a flatter tyre.

Standard camber is about 0 deg. -1 degree is about the max you can get with an S2 without shimming. I prefer -2 degree. Think my S1 was -2.5 degrees but that was very very VERY, erm, what’s the word, erm awesome.
Same here Mike. A happy medium for a road and track car. Works very well. Can still be twitchy and less composed in the wet for the reasons Neil mentioned but worth it.

I still get a bit of body roll which is down to the suspension which is the next thing to do.


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alicrozier
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Re: S3 suspension options

Post by alicrozier » Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:12 pm

For reference the 2-11 as standard is -1.4 front, -2.5 rear.
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BigD
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Re: S3 suspension options

Post by BigD » Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:00 pm

alicrozier wrote:For reference the 2-11 as standard is -1.4 front, -2.5 rear.
Which was my target when getting mine setup. Image


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mckeann
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Re: S3 suspension options

Post by mckeann » Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:26 pm

Mike Scib wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:26 pm
Your S2 wanted to drift in a straight line, not very confident inspiring on the road!

My S2 runs -1.2 on the front with the ABS bracket removed and -2.5 on the rear. Works will IMO on road and track with nice even tyre wear.

Am I not right in saying, if its not scrubbing the outside edge of tyres, there's little point in running more (less) camber?
mckeann wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:14 pm
If you keep things sensible, the drawbacks are limited, but as with anything, push to the extremes and it’ll be more nervous and tramline on the roads. It’ll wear out the inner edges of the front tyres faster than the outside, but usually the front tyres go off with age before this happens anyway so no big deal. If you go very extreme on camber and have stuff springs fitted too, you can find the car locks up slightly earlier in wet conditions where you don’t have the same body roll and tyre contact as a flatter tyre.

Standard camber is about 0 deg. -1 degree is about the max you can get with an S2 without shimming. I prefer -2 degree. Think my S1 was -2.5 degrees but that was very very VERY, erm, what’s the word, erm awesome.

It was perfectly sane compared to the S1 :D

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