Calvins (vxc) Exige S

[Edin430]

No matter how careful you are, due to the nature of the car it will through time get some swirls and scratches again, just the nature of the beast sir no matter how careful you are ( Which i'm sure you are ).

I can't believe it accounts for the number of swirls that are now visible though. In bright sunlight, it's clear that the entire car is absolutely covered in swirls and it looks like it did before you did that paint correction for me. I agree that I might have inflicted the odd swirl here or there as you describe above, but I can't believe that I've inflicted all the swirls on it - it just looks like the original swirls that were always on the car from before I got it.

I never use a power washer (just a garden hose with gentle pressure), I always foam the car first before taking a mitt to it, I use the two bucket method and only use gentle pressure with the mitt, I pat the car dry rather than rubbing, and I've not used any polish/sealant/wax on the car since I had the paint correction done, so it can't be my cloths. I also wash all my mitts and drying towel after use (with liquid rather than powder detergent).

So I still remain confused as to how the swirls have reappeared.

D

Swirls don't "re-appear"... New ones are created!

If you had your car machine polished the swirls will have been completely removed not just filled.

Bit of a shock to me that you have never put a wax or sealant on it since you had your car detailed Is that not 8 months ago now?!! That coupled with the garden hose is why ur car is marked could guarantee it.

Al has worked on my car a few times over the last years but I still give it at least 3-5 coats of wax plus a sealent EVERY weekend, regardless of weather etc. And it still gets new marks on it no matter how carefull i am.

Exige paint is VERY VERY fine and light therefore anything and everything will mark it. Get a paint gauge and measure the depth compared to a standard car and you'll realise why its impossible to stop the paint swirling.

Not having a go btw just a bit

Buy some Colinite 476 and even though it states it lasts a year - give it a coat every 4 - 5 washes and you'll be amazed at how much better your paint work looks. And how much easier it is to avoid swirls as you're drying towels and wash mit will wipe a lot easier.

Oh and Cal...

[dezzy]

Erm . . . if swirls have been filled (which they can be with many products) they can indeed re-appear. Have you never heard of a filler product? That's what a lot of things, like Autoglym SRP, do. They mask and fill swirls in. Therefore, when the product wears off, you can see the swirls again. i.e. they "reappear"!

Not that I have to justify myself to you, but personal commitments, weather, a move of house to a place without a garage/driveway have all prevented me from maintaining my usual routine with sealant/wax/etc. However, applying a sealant every week is a bit excessive!

I'm surprised you say Exige paint is very very fine and light. Most professional detailers and paint experts seem to comment that it's actually quite hard paint. Polished Bliss list Lotus in the "Intermediate" paint hardness section on their website, not soft. Oh, and regarding your comment on paint depth and measuring it . . . paint depth has nothing to do with swirls. It's paint softness that causes swirls to be easily inflicted. Swirl marks are inflicted easily on soft paint, but Lotus paint is not soft.

My lack of sealant/wax application cannot be blamed for inflicting swirls. I have taken every care to not inflict new ones in my washing method. And how the hell can a garden hose inflict swirls?! It uses gentle pressure compared to a power washer (which *can* inflict swirls).

My point is that I thought having the car machine polished would have removed the swirls. I was therefore surprised to see them reappear, and I definitely mean *reappear* a few months later. There are marks that I know were on my car before Ally did the machine polish that have now *reappeared*. Unless I have done something very wrong when washing the car (which I'm absolutely certain I have not), then I am convinced that the swirls were not actually removed by the machine polishing. Instead it looks like a filler or something has been used and it's now worn off, along with the wax, and so they have reappeared. Hence my question to Ally when he mentioned my car not having any swirls on it.

[campbell]

I struggle to see swirls on my car (and it's a dark colour) in anything other than bright sunlight or fluorescent lighting

that's because you've successfully removed most of them with your mega-polishing, Dezzy!

[allyrennie]

I'm feeling your not too happy about this Dezzy, which i'm obviously concerned about.

With regards to the products I use, they don't contain any fillers, Pro polish details as below ( Quoted from CG website) :-

Silicone free one step HIGH GLOSS FINAL POLISH leaves the surface shining like it was wet in one step.
Silicone free means you get true results, what you see is what you get even after weeks of washing this is a true polish that prepares any paint for the perfect sealant.
Works great as a final step product that produces an exceptional shine.
Rapidly removes light scrathes,key scratches, and most imperfections
Great for all paints new and old, clear coat safe, great for glass, Plexiglas, fiberglass, plastics and metal, and of course, on paints and clear coats.
Great as a final products or a superior foundation for wax, or sealants
No fillers or silicones guarantees Pro-Polishes' results are unmatched by any other polish.
Polishes & exfoliates impurities, bringing out your paints maximum shine, minimizes scratches and swirls and dissolves water spots while leaving the surface mirror smooth and reflective.
Pro-Polishes' unique Gloss enhancers guarantees that even without a wax or glaze Pro-Polish will outshine any polish.

Fillers can be used to try and mask defects when you don't want to go down the machine polishing route. When your carrying out correction then you are indeed removing defects so there is no need to then use a product with fillers, there is nothing to fill?

Keen to resolve this but also a bit confused that you have decided to put it public on a forum after over 8 months without a word on it, including meeting face to face several times and being told how great the car is still looking?

Regards

Ally

[Edin430]

Erm . . . if swirls have been filled (which they can be with many products) they can indeed re-appear. Have you never heard of a filler product? That's what a lot of things, like Autoglym SRP, do. They mask and fill swirls in. Therefore, when the product wears off, you can see the swirls again. i.e. they "reappear"!

Not that I have to justify myself to you, but personal commitments, weather, a move of house to a place without a garage/driveway have all prevented me from maintaining my usual routine with sealant/wax/etc. However, applying a sealant every week is a bit excessive!

I'm surprised you say Exige paint is very very fine and light. Most professional detailers and paint experts seem to comment that it's actually quite hard paint. Polished Bliss list Lotus in the "Intermediate" paint hardness section on their website, not soft. Oh, and regarding your comment on paint depth and measuring it . . . paint depth has nothing to do with swirls. It's paint softness that causes swirls to be easily inflicted. Swirl marks are inflicted easily on soft paint, but Lotus paint is not soft.

My lack of sealant/wax application cannot be blamed for inflicting swirls. I have taken every care to not inflict new ones in my washing method. And how the hell can a garden hose inflict swirls?! It uses gentle pressure compared to a power washer (which *can* inflict swirls).

My point is that I thought having the car machine polished would have removed the swirls. I was therefore surprised to see them reappear, and I definitely mean *reappear* a few months later. There are marks that I know were on my car before Ally did the machine polish that have now *reappeared*. Unless I have done something very wrong when washing the car (which I'm absolutely certain I have not), then I am convinced that the swirls were not actually removed by the machine polishing. Instead it looks like a filler or something has been used and it's now worn off, along with the wax, and so they have reappeared. Hence my question to Ally when he mentioned my car not having any swirls on it.

I hope the whole first paragraph there along with the "have you heard of a filler" comment was steeped in sarcasm?

Sealent is a peace of p!sh to apply as well so don't think it's excesive at all. Also, I'd never apply a wax without applying a sealent.. So ones brings on the other!

Machine Polishing, does not fill... It removes..... It cuts your paint microns back until they meet the sratch/swirl level and even out...... The end..... Bottom line...... Al doesn't use fillers to machine polish he uses cutting compounds and then glazes/waxes therefore he will not have filled anything. Al please correct me if I'm wrong?

Sorry I've maybe not looked into the paint strength properly and therefore shouldn't have commented on that but I do believe its a very "fine" (not sure of the correct word to use?) paint when it comes to scratches etc because its on Fibreglass not metal - Again Al please correct me if im wrong? I think an average Ford has something like twice the layers of paint/lacquer to a Lotus and is therefore more resiliant to scratches/swirls.

And I also hope you were kidding about the garden hose comment? What good is a garden hose going to do apart from make ur car wet? It won't remove a bit of dirt from it at all therefore completely pointless apart from rinsing soap off after you have cleaned it. A pressure washer can cause swirls yes - if you turn the bar up to the max level and hold it an inch from the car, but no one in their right mind should be stupid enough to do such a thing!

I think you have taken when I said as a personal remark - it really wasn't - just think it's incredibly funny and actually lol'd at how you think Al "fills" scratches and how you think you are not the one inflicting damage to your car seeing as you wash it every week but haven't waxed it in 8 months.... Running a brand new clean cloth over an unwaxed car would probably still swirl it.

Sure you do take a lot of care of the car and these commitments have stopped from the usual routine, but in the end regardless of what you commitments are, you're the one that isn't looking after the paint properly - so don't moan when it gets damaged... All IMHO of course

[dezzy]

Ally, I just posted on this thread asking how you photograph the swirls / paint correction on a white car. You then said that the swirls were "non-existant" on my car and I simply pointed out that they were not and it was as if they had re-appeared. I then went on to ask if this reappearance could be due to the products wearing off. I was simply having a discussion, which I assume would be of interest to others on this public forum.

You advertise your services on this public forum, so what's wrong with having a discussion on this public forum about the results of those services? At no point did I say you had caused the swirls. I was simply asking if this would be possible - if they could have been masked/filled and then re-appeared.

If you wish to advertise your services on a public forum and post up pictures of the finished results on your customers cars, then you have to also be open to discussions about the services you provide on such forums. Although I wasn't actually criticising your services, you do also have to be open to that too if you wish to advertise on a public forum like this.

I didn't "decide" to post this on a public forum after 8 months. You simply pointed something out about my car which led me to mention that I do have swirls on the car. This then simply led onto a discussion on swirls (which Lewis has decided to join - another feature of a public forum).

I know for a fact that I did not inflict the majority of the swirls on the car. Regardless of the lack of sealing/waxing, the amount of swirls on the car cannot be accounted for by my washing routine. Ignoring the swirls, there are fine scratches on my car in a very specific place which I know very well that were there before the machine polish. They have now reappeared. They are scratches that were inflicted in the transit of the new roof for my car after the old one leaked. These disappeared after the machine polish and are now back again. I can't think of any explanation as to how these could reappear other than that they were "masked" and the product doing this masking has now worn off.

I'm simply confused about this reappearance and was just asking what could have caused this.

BTW, I'm not going to get into a stupid argument with Lewis on garden hoses FFS - it's a hose with a high pressure variable nozzle. I use it at a pressure which removes dirt, but is not so strong as to damage the paint.

If you can't explain how the specific scratches mentioned above on my roof could simply just reappear, then fair enough. I'll just have to assume they were never removed in the first place.

I'm happy to accept that I may inflict the odd swirl here and there, but I don't accept that I've caused the amount of swirls that myself and others were observing on my car at the Spanners and Sponges session last weekend. They are mostly the ones that were always there on the car, ever since I picked it up from the dealer. I'll again therefore just have to assume that the machine polish unfortunately didn't manage to remove them all. Perhaps the next time I get a machine polish done, a more aggressive compound will have to be used.

Cheers,
D

[Shug]

This is getting a touch out of hand guys...

Dezzy, might have been a better idea to approach Ally offlist with your concerns before basically accusing him of lying on a public forum. Please contact him directly and sort this out if you have a problem with his work.

Ally, as you use the forum to advertise your services (along with lots of free advice) then it's inevitable that things like this are dragged into the open. Might be worth investigating Dezzy's concerns and posting up your findings.

Lewis, Speaking from a position of no knowledge of this particular situation (no matter how much of an expert you might be at washing cars), I don't see how you can surmise anything about how Dezzy washes the car and whether he was or was not responsible for the problems he has with his paint - especially having not seen it.


Hope you all see my points guys.

[Cisco]

Dezzy,

Maybe someone else is washing your car when your not there..

..If you catch this guy could you send him round to my bit cos I can't be arsed washing cars either.

Take care,

Frank

[dezzy]

Shug,

I have at no point accused Ally of anything. I'll say it once again: all along I have simply been asking questions to try to determine how these marks/scratches could have "reappeared". I was never argumentative and at no point did I say that Ally caused the swirls.

I appreciate you stepping in from a moderation point of view. You are correct that all Lewis seemed to do was try to stir up an argument on something that was nothing to do with him.

However, if I wish to discuss such things on the public forum, which may genuinely be of interest to other members, then I believe I am entitled to do so. Threads should not be stopped just because someone says something slightly negative about a business that SE promotes. It's no different to MMC - people give feedback on them too (and they don't actually advertise/promote on here the way Ally does).

I didn't actually say anything directly negative to Ally or about his work. We have exchanged some PMs about this and although I still don't have an explanation for the reappearance of specific scratches that disappeared after the machine polish, I guess I'll just have to leave it at that and go work on them myself.

I'm sorry Shug, but it's not one rule for one business and a different rule for another. Any business which promotes services on this forum must be able to stand up to public discussion or criticism (even though I've actually not directly criticised Ally at any point!). You can't let people openly criticise MMC for example and then go telling me I have to take things to PMs.

Either don't let business advertise on SE, or do let people make comment/discussion on them if they are allowed to advertise. I don't think it's fair of you to let people discuss positives/negatives of MMC and then not allow them to do the same of 360Complete. I remember a thread on SLS being closed down for similar reasons. This again comes across to me as different rules for different businesses that are discussed and/or promoted on SE.

To add a positive . . . Ally did fix the specific scratch on the rear clam of my car that initiated the job in the first place. All I've done here is ask a few questions to determine how some other marks/scratches have reappeared. If that's portrayed as negative, then fair enough. All businesses have to accept that risk that not everyone will be 100% satisfied.

I do appreciate your input to this, but I don't think we can have double standards on the forum and different rules for different businesses.

Cheers,
D

[Shug]

Dezzy - I'll keep this on-list as a direct response from a moderation point of view. Lets be 100% clear:

There has never been a thread closed down for any reason other than personal baiting or spamming. WRT SLS and the stink that seems to have surrounded that - I was sticking up for Ali as a mate on a personal level (not as a moderator) due to him not having reliable internet access to post himself. Perhaps that was a mistake, as it seems it was taken as Moderation - this is not the case (and I'm pretty sure I said that on several occasions in the thread in question) Plenty of issues were raised on that thread and not one was moderated. It was not closed, it simply died out after the issues were dealt with.

Coming to this thread. You're asking a question that, by association, questions 360 Complete's work, that's the point. This is something that should be communicated to the company first IMHO - but there's no reason for us to call a halt to it on list and I'm not trying to do that. Especially with a company like 360 Complete who do promote using the forum. My concern is that this is the first time Ally appears to have heard any murmur of discontent with his work for you and he's having to defend this work in public without actually having spoken to you first. I, for one, don't think that's a particularly reasonable way to behave with a business you've dealt with and it's not serving much purpose dragging out a thread into page long responses. I think you'd have been much better in addressing issues to Ally and then posting up if you didn't get an adequate response, but you absolutely have the right to post it if you want to - that's never in question.

To reference the MMC thread - there's as much positive as negative on it and it's been specifically requested, so I can't see how you can compare. If I can draw a parallel - I had an issue with MMC regarding Elaine's car, but the first course of action was not to debate it on a public forum, but to deal with the company and see how they handle it.

I take real issue with your comments about one rule for one and one for another - we strenuously try to avoid that in the moderation team and I'd like to see one concrete example of it happening. Simply speaking, it hasn't.

[dezzy]

Shug, I asked a question about photographing a car. Ally then replied and in that reply mentioned my car being swirl-free. I pointed out to him that it was not and this then led naturally onto a discussion on how that could have happened. That's just the natural flow of a conversation on a forum.

I had never raised this directly to Ally because I was never sure how the swirls could have reappeared. Since the conversation went this way, this ended up being the first opportunity to ask about it. I didn't post up a thread slating his work - I simply asked some questions.

There have been many times in the past when people (including me) have slated MMC and no moderators have had any issue with it. Although the thread about SLS was not closed, it was made clear that moderators did not want the thread to continue. I know I'm not the only person on this forum that thought that was unfair and thought that it was as if SE moderators didn't want any bad press on SLS, no matter how justified it may have been.

That's what's happened again here. You're criticising me for bringing this up on a public forum. But that's exactly what this is: a public forum. Ally advertises his services on here and although I thought that wasn't allowed on SE, I don't have a major problem with it. As long as it's also okay for people to discuss and/or criticise those services publicly too.

I appreciate you are not closing this thread, but in stepping in and telling me I should take this to PMs, you are implying that you do not want Ally's services criticsed on a public forum on which you allow him to advertise. That, to me, is a concrete example of you trying to prevent open discussion on the subject.

I'm not the only one that thinks this Shug, even though I might be the only one posting up about it. People felt very strongly about the way the SLS thread was dealt with and it looks like this one is going the same way. I know you're only trying to help and I appreciate you're not closing down the thread, but it does come across like the SE moderation team are trying to discourage people about saying negative things about certain businesses. Although it may not be intended that way, it really does come across as if people are not allowed to say anything remotely negative about a business which, for one reason or another, SE seems to have chosen to promote.

There has been no personal criticism or slagging in this post towards Ally. This is a discussion about the services of a business which you permit to promote itself on this forum. If you are going to allow businesses to promote themselves, you have to accept this will happen and you should not try to prevent people talking about it unless it gets personal and offensive (which this has not).

Otherwise, simply don't allow any promotion or advertising on the forum.

D

[Shug]

Did you read anything in my post?

I repeat - what I posted on the SLS forum was not moderation, it was from a personal point of view. That was probably my mistake.

Businesses do use the forum to promote, we try to make sure that it's not a pure win-win for them - do you feel it'd be better if we simply banned any and all references from a business?

We do not (as moderators) promote or side with any business on here. We also try not to let reputations get trashed without just cause. It happens very quickly on the internet.

It's a difficult tightrope - if you and others feel we're not walking it correctly. Complain - to us or on the forum. Don't grumble about it in private and grin to our faces.

I mean, I've seen you personally tons of times since that SLS thread and not a peep????

[campbell]

OK everybody just calm down...at the risk of Moderating the Moderation, there's a fairly simple principle to be observed here I think.

If as a consumer you have an issue (or a leading question) with a service provided, your first port of call should be the supplier. One to one. Probably best not a publicised enquiry.

Then IF that issue isn't resolved to your satisfaction, I think it's fair game to take it to public debate.

I feel this is generally the approach taken by members of SE, whether to do with Ali, Ally, MMC, AMP3 or any of the other thriving businesses keeping their profile up around here.

Bottom line for me...if there is more for Dezzy and Shug to discuss, it's time to take that offline as well. If there are reminders to be given to all community members re: discussions of commercial matters on here, we can distil those afterwards and publish sensibly.

Let's all stay friends though eh.

Campbell
(Mod hat on only very briefly and actually it's been quite a while which says a lot)

[Jamie84]

will T-Cut no work ?

I'm going to have to make a rediculous post in the main section soon to give us somthing serious to debate

[Jamie84]

On a serious note , I detailed my car around a year ago and there are new swirls appearing , no matter how well you maintain the car , they will appear Its really a case of limiting them as much as possible .

If I was not selling the car Id be detailing it again this year .

Note : I dont recommend doing it every year for obvious reasons

edit : leaves, cats , dust , kids touching while dirty = swirls.