News last night - wingsuit BASE

[Shug]

Not sure how many of us would consider what we do as a risky hobby - I don't. I don't take risks on the road. I don't endanger myself, my passangers or other road users. You may feel differently.

That bit is nonsense, sorry mate. You take a risk when you turn the key - as Scotty's accident ably demonstrated. What you're talking about is levels of risk, which is the variable grey area bit. With no knowledge of base jumping, how can you quantify, in objective terms, the relative risks present? Some would say that overtaking a car on a single carriageway B road was dangerous, completely independent of the visibility, relative speeds, etc. etc.... So you say what the guy did was endangering himself - how can you quantify that with no knowledge of what he's doing?

[ryallm]

Greg, curious to know why do you think he was a pillock, exactly? Because he was doing a high risk sport? 2 good friends of mine have lost their lives in paragliding accidents, and two others have had accidents requiring air rescue - would they all be classed as pillocks too? At what level of risk do you stop becoming a pillock? Perhaps your view stems from the perception that base jumpers are all reckless nutters. I can assure you that this is not the case. All the base jumpers I have met are acutely aware of the risks they take and meticulously plan every jump. It takes me about 10 minutes to pack my skydive rig, whereas a base jumper will often take over an hour to pack to be as sure as possible thet the chute opens smoothly and on heading. Base jumping is an extreme and high risk sport, it does not follow that it is therefore reckless and stupid.

Mark

[GregR]

ffs - this place is quite difficult to express an opinion in sometimes.

Two elements shug:-

(1) Risk
(2) Hobby

1 - yes there's a risk when I turn the key.
2 - Every time I turn the key, am I taking part in a hobby? No.

Sorry to be pedantic, but I don't think of driving my car to the shops, round to see friends as a hobby, ergo, I don't consider it a risky hobby. When I'm on track, that's a hobby. Is it a risky hobby? Yes.

I am not saying that sports with a risk factor of X should be banned, or that risk factor Y should be allowed. everyone's entitled to take the risk they're happy to expose themselves and others around them to. They're not, in my view, entitled to be shielded from ridicule for taking such a risk.

We're all individuals. I may feel a level of risk is acceptable that you, Pete, Graeme and Mark don't. That's fine and I have no problem with that. However, if you feel I'm doing something 'stupid' (to give taking a risk you feel is unacceptible a 'tag'), then you're entitled to tell me that after that risk materialised. In addition, you're entitled to tell me that in addition to breaking my neck, head and legs, I risked inflicting a risk of a similar fate on those that came to get me. That, in your view, might have made what I did rather selfish.

Maybe in a long-winded and stupidly caffeine-fuelled way I've got to the bottom of the point I'm trying to make. The guy was being selfish; by risking himself and others in the pursuit of an adrenaline high.

[Shug]

Okay mate, if that's the crux of your point - we simply disagree on the risk levels and associated actions.

[graeme]

Not sure how many of us would consider what we do as a risky hobby - I don't. I don't take risks on the road. I don't endanger myself, my passangers or other road users. You may feel differently.

I do. Very differently, and I worry quite a bit that you don't. Every time you get in a car the odds reset, just like last week's lottery numbers have no bearing on next weeks. However, our human brains don't work that way, and we are naturally lulled into a false sense of security which worsens with every journey we make. We 'learn' that because you survived the last X journeys, the next one will be just as trouble-free. The bigger X gets, the more the perceived risk tends towards zero. It's not ignorance, it's how we're programmed. But it's dangerous.

That's never going to change in the masses of A-to-B road drivers, but we as driving enthusiasts (who sometimes drive on the roads for reasons other than just getting somewhere) should each work hard to remind ourselves that that simply ain't the case. If anything, with more road users than ever, and the number increasing all the time, the risk increases too. We don't see it and won't see it unless we remind ourselves it's there.

I know there's not really a non-patronising way to suggest that folks consider doing an IAM or RoSPA advanced driving course, but I really don't mean it to be condescending when I suggest it. It's one of the best things I ever did, and I think others here who have done it would agree.
I urge you to check it out. It will certainly change your perception of the risks of driving, but at the same time increase your capability to manage them.

All good banter though

Always.

[meatball]

Anybody want to try to tell Scotty that we don't have a risky hobby and that we have no need for air ambulances?

Implying that we motoring enthusiasts have some sort of moral high-ground over base-jumpers is a pile of crap, and shows scant regard for the risks involved in road-runs..

I don't recall saying anything about air ambulances being removed or reading such a thing?
I have made comment on people that I have seen risk taking on road runs too......pillock may be a good word!

Hey ho....the world would be a boring place if we all agreed!
....still can't believe I agree with a lawyer though......the shame!!!!

hehe

[ryallm]

Enjoying this discussion

I don't think the fact that someone is prepared to take a higher risk than me should class them as stupid, unless they are being needlessly reckless. I pursue an adrenalin high every time I go skydiving - base jumping is far, far more risky, but I don't see it as inherently different. Just a matter of degree and where as an individual you draw the line. Personally I have no plans to get into base, largely as I couldn't square the risk with being a father (wingsuit is another matter - definitely going to be trying that ), but I have plenty of respect for base jumpers, mountaineers etc whose personal risk threshold is different to my own.

Mark

[pete]

We're all individuals..

I'm not.

(Sorry, couldn't resist)

[GregR]

Not sure how many of us would consider what we do as a risky hobby - I don't. I don't take risks on the road. I don't endanger myself, my passangers or other road users. You may feel differently.

I do. Very differently, and I worry quite a bit that you don't. Every time you get in a car the odds reset, just like last week's lottery numbers have no bearing on next weeks. However, our human brains don't work that way, and we are naturally lulled into a false sense of security which worsens with every journey we make. We 'learn' that because you survived the last X journeys, the next one will be just as trouble-free. The bigger X gets, the more the perceived risk tends towards zero. It's not ignorance, it's how we're programmed. But it's dangerous.

Hopefully I've clarified that point in my riposte to Shug. I have never considered driving as a hobby unless I'm on track or on a road run (of which I think I've done 1 at TT 2007). Of course I enjoy it, but then I enjoy Mr & Mrs Rolfe time but I don't consider that a hobby either

I think I'm probably one of the most risk-averse people on the roads. That's beacause I was involved in a big crash when I was 23, I have defended road traffic claims for catastrophic injury for the last 5 years, and now I deal with all of the fatal accident Inquiries that arise on Scotland's roads. My wife is a doctor in A&E. Worry not about my perception of risk on the roads

Mark, to comment specifically in relation to your point, I don't think I have ever said that I think people that indulge in base jumping or skydiving are mentally deficient in some way. They have a different perception of risk, or different thresholds of what's an acceptable risk to me. Does that make what they do wrong? Of course not. Not of itself. If the risk involves the potential of involving others in a dangerous situation then I disagree with what they're doing and think its a little selfish. Does that mean I think they're wrong to do it? Who knows, it depends on your perception

[pete]

I think anyone that takes a gamble or a risk is entitled to do so. If that risk pays off, they're entitled to the plaudits. If it fails, they're due a knocking for it - all the more so if in the factor of risk you include not only danger to yourself, but danger to others.

A very British attitude I always think it is a shame that folk take such a knocking when they fail... better to have tried etc...

(In order to illustrate my point, and because I like the story, apparently WD40 is so called because the man who invented it decided we needed a better lubricant for the "Rocket Age" so set about making a Water Dispersant. This was his 40th attempt and most successful - hence WD40.
I imagine in the back of his lab Greg and probably Mr WD40's wife (played by one of Marge Simpson's sisters) cackling at the first 39 attempts, "Number 5's sh*t, you're sh*t at making an incredibly useful and strangely nice smelling water dispersant. Number 32 is sh*t too. etc. Oh look he's burnt himself, what did he expect playing with all those chemicals, no don't call an ambulance he has to learn. ")

[pete]

Not sure how many of us would consider what we do as a risky hobby - I don't. I don't take risks on the road. I don't endanger myself, my passangers or other road users. You may feel differently.

A pedant writes,

Everything we do has risk associated with it, I think what you mean is that the risk associcated with your hobbies is within what you consider to be socially acceptable tolerances. Therefore the risks that the "pillock" took must have been outside those tolerances. Therefore your idea of socially acceptable tolerances might be different to mine.
But then all our tolerances are different, mine are different to yours (although I'm betting they aren't very different) and yours are probably different from teh Daily Mail reader who considers Health and Safety doesn't go far enough and a good hobby is watching TV.

I would just like ot know what your tolerances are, you mention that people risked their lives to save him. That would be difficult to objectively quantify, how dangerous is operating a rescue heli? Do they know and accept the risks? The folk I know who have done it all thoroughly enjoyed it!

All good banter though

Absolutely. (Am I winning yet? Are you keeping score?)

[graeme]

Obligatory XKCD post: http://xkcd.com/386/

[pete]

Obligatory XKCD post: http://xkcd.com/386/

I nearly used that!!!

(edited to add not only did I nearly use it but it has just been pointed out that it is also pinned to the wall in my study. XKCD rocks.)

[Shug]

Obligatory XKCD post: http://xkcd.com/386/

Old, old post dude - has even been used on here before

The rate this thread is going, it might get repeated in 3 pages time

[mac]

I guess risk perception is an individual thing - A few of my friends have scoffed at me for saying I don't take risks when they see me doing 100+ along the pit straight at KH with a concrete wall inches to my left or when starting off for a run at Forrestburn or more so Doune.

Am I taking a risk - undoubtedly but I always look to minimise the risk, so Kh have a medical center and a paid for paramedic crew and full kitted out ambulance on site during the event. Hillclimbs have at least one, sometimes Rescue units staffed by folk well training in life preservation and extrication procedures - so to me the risk is minimised.

That's part of the reason why I wasn't happy with Teeside as I thought the arrangements were inadequate, down to the point where the solo paramedic (how does he driver and keep you alive at the same time?) had his vehicle pointing in the wrong direction for quick access to the track.

If folk want to have pasttimes from base jumpers to extreme dominos then that's all well and good and I tip my hat to anyone with the bottle to jump of a cliff or exit a perfectly serviceable aircraft when it's on stationery on solid ground - but I would expect them to pre-arrange the required cover to ensure that any risks taken were minimised.

I think perhaps it's time to mention that we do not organise Road Runs as that would require a club with MSA approval. The only thing I've ever seen on SE is destinations and perhaps the occasional map of the area highlighting the shortest route but not a recommended one


Mac