Why don't I like Honda K20's

[KingK_series]

Perhaps Honda have to look at a whole different set of requirements for a production engine Vs a hand full of hand built engines? Or indeed a Rover K. Perhaps if Austin Rover had persued a more conservative design they'd have had a more reliable, cheaper to produce, product.

Well I don't like conservative, cheap engines either, on the other hand I love engineering, I love engineering that works, and the lightweight K is manner from heaven, whereas the K20 is crude in many ways, rough, heavy and built in tiny numbers. The K series build was 6 million.

Does it not occur to you that Honda will have built that engine to a set price and have chosen to spend on the head rather and on reliability than the weight of the moving parts?

I'm surprised the rover K build was that high, but comparing a range of 1.1 > 2.5 engines over a vast number of vehicle designs Vs an engine type in two (three if you count the Atom?) cars. Not really relevant. I do agree though, I like to see good, lean and well considered engineering. It's just in a mass market product it's not always relevant, esp. when iVtec is a more marketable USP that lightweight internals.

I havn't got to the head yet - please be patient, got lots to say about that too -


Rover K16 had the largest build of any European engine and is right up there world wide.

Ivetec is an attempt at saving grace in many ways.............the heavier slower to rev crankset takes longer to accelerate the engine, therefore car, therefore it takes longer to get on cam, - so use ivetc or a vvc system to offset/help/mitigate the issue.


I have recently being trying to use variable valve timing on one of my race engines [Rover ] - but the mechs just dont like revving to 9500rpm, I have just heard that no one has ever made any variable valve timing device hold together above 9500rpm, - I was trying to get it to work on an engine that revved 9500+ , no way....you live and learn.

[foz01]

That's the old k20 flywheel btw...

That was a K20A2 crankset, common to ALL A2s I believe

here is a K20JDM that threw a rod in an Elise [see mangled pin] with the lighter flywheel now common on the K20Z1, still no dowel and still 400gmm odd out of balance ie 4x worse than stock Rover at 100gmm.

Honda updated and lightened the flywheel as part of the UK CTR facelift, so whats that 2004, mine certainly is not like that, has lots of machined holes in it although i dont have a picture of it.

[KingK_series]

Sorry - not quite sure what you are saying or asking?

are you asking where this crankset above came from? - It was from a K20A JDM [2006 I believe?] that someone paid a lot of money for.

-

[hiscot]

I have recently being trying to use variable valve timing on one of my race engines [Rover ] - but the mechs just dont like revving to 9500rpm, I have just heard that no one has ever made any variable valve timing device hold together above 9500rpm, - I was trying to get it to work on an engine that revved 9500+ , no way....you live and learn.
KingK_series

Simon does this count DTA S80 honda 1600 vtec 9600 rpm ( soon to be 10k )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfm-Jo8q ... 003B3D1B13

[KingK_series]

I have recently being trying to use variable valve timing on one of my race engines [Rover ] - but the mechs just dont like revving to 9500rpm, I have just heard that no one has ever made any variable valve timing device hold together above 9500rpm, - I was trying to get it to work on an engine that revved 9500+ , no way....you live and learn.
KingK_series

Simon does this count DTA S80 honda 1600 vtec 9600 rpm ( soon to be 10k )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfm-Jo8q ... 003B3D1B13

fabulous engine note - the sound of a properly mapped engine

- if you know the vtec is working? Guy at CPL uses the vtec to 9000/9500, - so it probably is ok to there

my engine is going to rev much higher

[Gourlay83]

I have recently being trying to use variable valve timing on one of my race engines [Rover ] - but the mechs just dont like revving to 9500rpm, I have just heard that no one has ever made any variable valve timing device hold together above 9500rpm, - I was trying to get it to work on an engine that revved 9500+ , no way....you live and learn.
KingK_series

Simon does this count DTA S80 honda 1600 vtec 9600 rpm ( soon to be 10k )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfm-Jo8q ... 003B3D1B13

fabulous engine note - the sound of a properly mapped engine

- if you know the vtec is working? Gut at CPL uses the vtec to 9000/9500, - so it probably is ok to there

my engine is going to rev much higher

Thought your engine was complete ?

[KingK_series]

I have lots of engines...........

[I-Mac]

An interesting read....

Power aside, I was wondering how you go about strengthening the K? How do you stop the failures with short duration heat cycles flexing the block and oil ladder, particularly in 2L format? Do you use FEA? What is physically done to overcome this? - and any attributable HGF?

Do you build customer engines? What warranty (for competition use) do they have?

[r10crw]

Simon,
Whats your thoughts regards VGK racing? Im looking at sending my block to him to have work done, would be interesting to hear your thoughts. He seems to produce a 2.0K short block for reasonable money and I believe you helped out in the early stages of his business?
Craig.

[foz01]

Sorry - not quite sure what you are saying or asking?

are you asking where this crankset above came from? - It was from a K20A JDM [2006 I believe?] that someone paid a lot of money for.

-

No. Am telling you that's an old flywheel, they came lightened as part of thefacelift I mentioned, a common upgrade to a lightened flywheel for the older engines is to fit the later Honda flywheel

[KingK_series]

Sorry - not quite sure what you are saying or asking?

are you asking where this crankset above came from? - It was from a K20A JDM [2006 I believe?] that someone paid a lot of money for.

-

No. Am telling you that's an old flywheel, they came lightened as part of thefacelift I mentioned, a common upgrade to a lightened flywheel for the older engines is to fit the later Honda flywheel

Sorry, don't understand what you are saying here?

I have only 3 flywheels, 2 identical with lightening holes weighing 4.8kg one off a JDM one from a Z1

the solid flywheel of a K20A2 weighs 7kg.

neither are doweled.

I know Maidstone used to or do fit the his flywheel to their conversions, I believe they call it the JDM flywheel[?] they also claim to balance them, which is honestly spurious since it is not done at Vibration Free but more importantly there is no dowel so it becomes meaningless.

[KingK_series]

Simon,
Whats your thoughts regards VGK racing? Im looking at sending my block to him to have work done, would be interesting to hear your thoughts. He seems to produce a 2.0K short block for reasonable money and I believe you helped out in the early stages of his business?
Craig.

Vicente does some very good work to fit and hot hone liners, he sent me a box of all his bits a few years back for my view and I have to say they were better done than anything done by the commercial players in the UK. He also does it for love not money, which is probably why. The work is basic, but done right. I was involved with him only by way of help porting his heads [ and exchanging ideas] which I did for no money........and is a task since I HATE porting, but I believed he deserved the help because he is honestly one of just a very few really decent honest people doing this. Roger at Sabreheads is another.

[Shug]

Sorry - not quite sure what you are saying or asking?

are you asking where this crankset above came from? - It was from a K20A JDM [2006 I believe?] that someone paid a lot of money for.

-

No. Am telling you that's an old flywheel, they came lightened as part of thefacelift I mentioned, a common upgrade to a lightened flywheel for the older engines is to fit the later Honda flywheel

Sorry, don't understand what you are saying here?
.

Simon, he's been very clear. He's saying [his understanding is] as part of the Honda mid-life model facelift for the Type R, the engine was revised with a lightened flywheel. I also believe he's saying what you have on the scales isn't the lightened flywheel he has as part of a standard engine from post that update.

[KingK_series]

An interesting read....

Power aside, I was wondering how you go about strengthening the K? How do you stop the failures with short duration heat cycles flexing the block and oil ladder, particularly in 2L format? Do you use FEA? What is physically done to overcome this? - and any attributable HGF?

Do you build customer engines? What warranty (for competition use) do they have?

AAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!! Very good question, - best question I have ever heard anybody ask of anyone on any of these forums in 6 years!


Yes I do a great deal to the engine to influence the flow through the engine and eliminate the thermal gradient that is the cause of so called "HGF' the work came from a Company called Advanced Analysis Tech and started as FEA, the remedy came about from a conversation I had with 2 Rover engineers, Bill who designed the PRT and Steve who did some practical anaysis on the Longbride dynos to prove the theory, Bill and I togeather put our heads together to produce the current solution.

Forgive me if I do not post pics or give a more complete explanation, but I am keeping that for the book. However the result of this work is that temps even out which not only sorts the perennial Achilles Heel of this engine but allows more ignition advance, which is a pile of free torque. Such are the benifits that I recently knocked down the 4 class A LOT engines I built, two of which were waiting for their owner to provide Lot cars for the install, to do this work, The BTCC engine was built before I got this far and has none of this - it is a blueprinted engine, but is not up to date, which is one of the reasons I say I have got a lot further.


I build engines for people who ask and are interested in engineering and in a complete package that I have designed, I am not interested in knocking something together to suit, it either works properly or not at all.......... next year I plan an engine on a plenum and wet sump to be cheaper, but it will still be blueprinted, have all my ideas to make the engine last and work without any risk of "HGF' have a decent clutch etc etc and hopefully 220+ bhp, but I have other engines to finish first including the forced induction Ks.

[KingK_series]

Simon, he's been very clear. He's saying [his understanding is] as part of the Honda mid-life model facelift for the Type R, the engine was revised with a lightened flywheel. I also believe he's saying what you have on the scales isn't the lightened flywheel he has as part of a standard engine from post that update.

can he post a pic?


I have 5 blown hondas, that doesn't mean I have a complete encyclopedia of every honda mod, however I am curious if there was a [better?} flywheel fitted to the K20A2 as part of a face-lift, why was that flywheel not carried through to the later [current?] Z1? rather than the lighter flywheel used on the rare and extremely expensive K20 JDM which was and is supposed to be the "best" of the K20 family?

do enlighten me, pics would be great