Why don't I like Honda K20's

[Shug]

Corner weighted my car yesterday. If you allow me to deduct the screen and doors (camping spec) a whopping 495kg.

Do I win ?

Alan

How many wheels does it need, to be entered?

[tut]

The only thing I can say for sure is the weight of N3 at 765kg, as Craig did mine before he went down to Glasgow and weighed the other cars, including Dom's, so we have the same base line.

N3 is actually a bog standard late '96 car Shug, engine apart, with driving lights and radio, so has not been lightened at all, in fact the opposite as I had to fit steel disks at the front when the MMC's melted, which adds 6kgs. Although hardly a Concours entry, all the bodywork is still present.

My own opinion is that with full fuel it could not have been less than 740kg when original, as production weight was supposedly around 730kg, and 40l of fuel is around 30kg. In fact I have just fished out my original Elise brochure and it gives unladen weight as 755kg which seems too high, and fuel capacity as 36l which is definitely wrong as mine is 41.





tut

ps:- actually looking at that pic and spec, it is of a later S1 as it has steel brakes and twelve spoke wheels, so it would have been heavier than the first cars.

[hiscot]

Vey good post Campbell.
The power-to-weight debate can then be had once we know 'facts'.

IMO Power to weight does not always give the full story either
Take dans race 1600 elise it has a power to weight of 310 but a low peak torque of 116ft/lb coupled with requiring high 8k revs that makes 100mph in 3rd or 140 in 4th maybe fine on track but for a road car I would take better ratios more torque and lower revs, even with a much lower power to weight . If I remember simon s had a high tune k series that was tested against a lower powered elise and for the road the lower powered car was in fact the better one
I think here we are just judging engine power and chassis weight, when in the real world its more about the way it delivers what its got and what we want from it

[tut]

Agreed bob, tis the power delivery for me that counts.

From that point of view I can not imagine a better road going Elise than a S/C Honda for me, it is not exciting from a sudden cam change point of view as was N1, but it is like a turbine engine, the power and torque are there throughout the rpm range just seamlessly, so 6th gear is the norm on a road run.

However on the track the 8600rpm are there to be used and change the character. Would have liked to have gone to the next stage for the track, 3.2" S/C pulley, UK as opposed to JDM crankshaft pulley, and charge cooler that would have taken it up to 370ish, but a few years too late for that now.

tut

[Scuffers]

go on Tut, you know you want it:

[tut]

Special tut deal Simon, twould be the only one in Scotland as far as I know, driven by a 72 year old, great publicity, which unfortunately you do not really need?

tut

[Gourlay83]

go on Tut, you know you want it:

Obviously charge cooled but is that a standard K20 engine ?

[roadboy]

There was also a rolling programme of upgrades that gradually snuck kerb weight up seemingly on a weekly basis at first - so you can't be totally exhaustive about this.

So what you ideally need are before- and after-Honda-conversion figures on the same car I supopse.

But KingK has stated that a Honda conversion weighs 50kg+ more than a standard K, which is a very large differnce, so I guess two cars of roughly the same age, one with Honda, one with K could give a good approximation of whether this could be close to the truth or not.

Whatever way you look at it, weights of a block stripped of ancillaries, or a gearbox on it's own aren't really relevant- you need to take all the components of an engine conversion as a whole.

This is exactly the point and I can categorically state that when Simon (Scuffers) and I did my Honda conversion, absolutely nothing else was changed/upgraded/removed/added at the same time. I weighed my car before and after the conversion to get a true weight difference. The car weighed 734kg before the conversion and 749kg after the conversion. Same fuel level, everything absolutely identical apart from the conversion.

So, as has been stated many many times, an N/A Link-Up conversion adds 15kg to the overall weight. Something Mr. Erland happily ignores and quotes weights of bare engines over and over.

I am a huge fan of the K series and have thrown a lot of money at my current one but if I coukd race in the series I run in with a Honda lump then I would.

HTH

Dan

[KingK_series]

Even my other half just commented on how bad that engine bay is...

- well no apologies, the loom was in bits in order just to get the engine running on 4 competition coils, it has since been remade, though the pics were in truth taken as a reference whilst my KingK airbox was remade to fit an engine with 42mm jenveys - NO KingK engine uses off the shelf ITBs, jenvey 42's, 45's or Titans


however you do highlight one fact, and that is that no matter how well built an engine [or otherwise] if someone else installs it, there is no guarantee as to how it will look, turn out or as I have learn't go, - this engine did suffer ring/bore issues because my clear, careful instructions to start the engine under load and on track were willfully flouted - the man that did it confessed to starting it in his workshop which was infuriating. However the engine has done 11,000 track miles and still does better than 218bhp which is better than anyone else has achieved on a VVC head oem bore and stroke with jenveys and a 285 hydraulic cam in a wet sumped Lotus install with an off the shelf 4-2-1. Most barely make 200bhp.

maybe I should write a post about the entire history with graps of the engine, and contrary to what Scuffers says it was one of my first built in 2005.

but anyway, here is Mark's engine compared to one of exactly the same spec...

http://www.dyno-plot.co.uk/dyno/dynoplo ... /index.htm

[KingK_series]

so, that cars been a work in progress for how many years?

at least I can post up pictures of installs that don't look like bodgeit and co.

Are those mandrel bent bends in the exhaust?

[KingK_series]

"I'll have to see if I can find someone who wants to build a blown engine to trip this one up!"

Good luck with that. Would need to be someone who doesn't read the forum!

One forced induction engine already built - bigger than scuffer's sc honda here, and another all new spec on the drawing board

I meant.... to take on James in that series.

[KingK_series]

you still just don't get it do you?

that's a std K20A2 with cams, an off the shelf supercharger/IC kit, job done.

no 'special' stuff that's un-obtainium, no waiting about for 10 years for something that may well never appear.

it's out there, winning in open competition (and whilst Time Attack may not be the pinnacle of Motorsport, it's still open competition).

Look, cut the crap, time to put up or shut up, list the cars/owners that have engines you built, along with their results, you have had 10 years now, the book is never going to happen, time to come clean.

The book will happen and there are engines out there - as you well know -


however I have to ask if that is really just a stock engine, with SC AND CC how on earth do you justify charging over 20 grand for it??? - REALLY with a cheap unbalanced undercounterweighted iron crank, cheeeeesium rods and bricks for pistons - that is a huge amount of money and I cannot possibly understand how you can justify it??????

Seriously! if it's just stock are you stuffing your pockets with profit?


thats 10 1/2 k for the base engine

http://www.maidstonesportscars.co.uk/se ... sions.html


Plus £4400 for sc
plus £3400 for cc
plus £1800 for the cams you talk about

Total £20,100 for an engine out of a scrapper

http://www.maidstonesportscars.co.uk/se ... xtras.html


oh and then there's an extra

£492 for a lightweight flywheel [not balanced to crank and no dowel to balance it properly anyway]
£804 for an oil cooler
£456 for a cheap pressed steel clutch!!!! mindboggling
1110 for a LSD
and £2580! for a complete decent exhaust system [your basic £10500 conversion comes with cheap manifold and no backbox?]

all of which I consider basic to a KingK install

and for a grand tootal of £25,542!

FOR A STOCK ENGINE OUT OF A SCRAPPER'S - mindboggling!

[KingK_series]

This is exactly the point and I can categorically state that when Simon (Scuffers) and I did my Honda conversion, absolutely nothing else was changed/upgraded/removed/added at the same time. I weighed my car before and after the conversion to get a true weight difference. The car weighed 734kg before the conversion and 749kg after the conversion. Same fuel level, everything absolutely identical apart from the conversion.

So, as has been stated many many times, an N/A Link-Up conversion adds 15kg to the overall weight. Something Mr. Erland happily ignores and quotes weights of bare engines over and over.

I am a huge fan of the K series and have thrown a lot of money at my current one but if I coukd race in the series I run in with a Honda lump then I would.

HTH

Dan

I have no idea who built your Ks? but who is to say they were any better than on the "Why I don't like what gets done to the K series ' thread?......


.........but more importantly the Honda K20a2 stock engine is as I have told you over 40kg heavier than a Stock K like for like, and nearer 50 kg heavier than an engine plus box etc, so how you get to 15kg must be down to what gets done to the car....

or are you taking issue with me by saying the Rover PG1 box is 25kg heavier than the 6speed Honda,,,,,,????

Interesting thought I must say.... or maybe the Rover starter motor is 25kg heavier than the Honda.......

I do have a complete Honda here BTW so I really do know.

[mikeyb13]

Good point but only a fair point if you can compare how much would it cost to make a 380 bhp k-series?

Ps Scuffers, if you after an n/a car to show how cheaply 280ish can be acheived give me a shout

[KingK_series]

Good point but only a fair point if you can compare how much would it cost to make a 380 bhp k-series?

Ps Scuffers, if you after an n/a car to show how cheaply 280ish can be acheived give me a shout

Don't do 380bhp

300 plus na

and forced induction, way more than the Honda SC CC.

-Honestly and for less money than the Scuffers SCCC install, mine all steel, dry sumped and blueprinted to boot!