Sick 'K' needs help...

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robin
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Post by robin » Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:34 pm

r10crw wrote: Ps. I think a standard ecu relys on the distributor for firing position and uses the cps for reference only. On the vvc, vhpd the cps was used since a waste spark system was employed.
Switching to the emerald might be handy as it would let you see what the ECU is seeing (assuming you can drive the PC s/w to control it).

The firing position on standard S1 engine is controlled by distributor.

All others have a wasted spark system, but the ECU still doesn't have to know which cylinder is on which phase as the coils fire both spark plugs.

The cam position sensor is only used to work out which injector to drive for full sequential injection (VVC and EU3 engines). On VVC cam position sensor also provides feedback on valve timing.

The crucial information that the crank position sensor provides to all of these engines is angle of rotation for ignition timing purposes, and it's for this reason that the ECU can not and will not run without the crank position sensor working.

On the emerald one or other of the ECU LEDs is used to indicate whether the ECU is in sync with the crank position sensor. If you find that this drops out once the engine is running, that would explain a lot!

Cheers,
Robin

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offshorematt
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Post by offshorematt » Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:36 pm

Okay, to answer Robin's questions first...

(1) We know there is spark because you've run it with a loose plug in number 1 lead? - yes number 1 and number 4 have both been out and are both sparking

(2) We know there is fuel circulating because you've removed the return side and run it through a long hose into a bucket or can? - yes if you mean disconnecting the fuel line at the upstream end of the fuel rail and getting a mate to hold it while the fuel is fired all over the carpark :wink: Eventually started using a fuel can after getting worried about standing in the puddle. Repeated this a few times over the last couple of weeks and have pumped about 2litres in total through the system. When the pump primes a squirt of fuel is seen as expected. Then when cranking there is a constant stream of fuel under good pressure as long as the key is turned. The system seems fine...

If that's OK, run a longer test - keep cranking (you can remove spark plugs to reduce load on starter motor) and see whether the fuel return dries up after a while. This could be the case if you had a corroded connector in the engine harness connector blocks en route to the fuel pump. When cold it might allow enough current to prime the motor, but on continuous running the connector will heat up (there's a lot of current flowing and even a 1 ohm resistance will generate significant heat) and this heat causes the resistance to increase - vicious circle time until too much voltage is lost across the bad connection and the pump stalls. Leave it for a while to cool down and it starts to work again. - so what you're suggesting is, in this case the car should start but after getting hot, will die. This isn't happening here - its not catching at all

So if on average it runs for 20 seconds after catching, try cranking for a 30 seconds and make sure fuel is returned at full flow for that whole time. - it won't catch at all if the fuel line is connected, it only runs (and runs quite sweetly) when the fuel rail is at atmospheric pressure and of course dies when the fuel in the rail runs out. Throughout this period, as mentioned, the fuel pump is quietly emptying my tank into a fuel can...i.e not returning to the tank


(3) I assume it's not now backfiring (i.e. there's no way you've fixed the fuelling problem and introduced a firing order problem in the process) - absolutely no change. Once the fuel line is reconnected following the engine running ok without it, the engine just turns over without firing

(4) Although it's a no-no in normal running, have you tried to start the car on part throttle? I assume it will just splutter and die as before. I would also disconnect the TPS wiring and run it without a TPS (the ECU doesn't need the TPS to work and will just ignore it if not present). Opening the throttle manually will bypass any problem with the IACV not opening. - no effect using either the throttle or opening manually. Not even a hint of a fire

(5) Given it's now quite cold if the problem is that the coolant temperature sensor or inlet air temperature sensors are gubbed, it could make a significant difference. Disconnect the brown sensor at the water elbow and the green one on the intake manifold. - have looked at at least one maybe both but surely this wouldn't let the engine run when the fuel isn't pressurised?Oh, and it was warm when the car cr4pped out :wink:

(6) Now that you have a spare fuel rail you could consider running your original fuel rail loose into a bed of paper towels and see just how much fuel gets squirted into it when cranking. Note that the ECU doesn't do fuelling in an obvious way on cranking - rather it just squirts now and then to avoid flooding the engine, so provided you get some fuel into the towels, I think you can be happy. - this is interesting. I'll have a looksee again this weekend but I think the fuel is coming out a fairly constant rate when cranking. Flooding the engine right from the word go? Only thing is I would expect the exhaust to be stinking of fuel and the plugs to be soaking when pulled - neither of these is happening hence why I thought under fuelling rather than over...

Dan/Richard - with regards the Compression Test, surely if the engine was running (regardless of the fuel pressure) then the cylinders are having a poor-boy compression test each time it turns over

Craig - thanks for the offer to lend your ECU. But......to my mind, the thing that is preventing firing must be related to the fuel pressure in the rail (works when atmospheric, doesn't when its not) and to the best of my knowledge there is no electronic sensor recording this so the ECU doesn't need to know this before firing the plugs :?:


I've now got the new fuel rail and new FPR and I'll get them on in place of the used parts (I'll also check the return flow in the process). I've just ordered a new coil as well (cheap enough to easily justify) to completely rule out the ignition system.

I have to get focussed as my old man wants his Vectra back! :roll:

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offshorematt
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Post by offshorematt » Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:46 pm

robin wrote:
(2) We know there is fuel circulating because you've removed the return side and run it through a long hose into a bucket or can?
Just had another think about this. If the return line was plugged downstream of the FPR, then the build up of pressure would be seen across the rail and hence the injectors would see full pump pressure. This I guess would be enough to flood the spark? Would still expect the plugs to be wringing but hey ho... However, I'm pretty sure the AA man had me crank the engine while the return line was disconnected but it doesn't harm to check twice.

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robin
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Post by robin » Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:50 pm

Hmmmmm - if the injectors open against the fuel pressure then it would be reasonable to assume more current is required to open them when the fuel rail is pressurised.

If all four injectors aren't injecting then this could well be a fault in the common power supply to the injectors (the Brown/Pink heavy gauge wire that goes to the three pin plug that you by now must have found when shuffling fuel rails about - the other two wires are Yellow/Green and Yellow/Red IIRC).

It turns out that the Brown/Pink wire whilst logically common with all the other Brown/Pink common +12v feeds about the engine actually has its own wire back to the MFRU and there is a bridging link inside the MFRU to connect it to all the other Brown/Pinks. So there is scope for it being faulty whilst everything else is OK.

Now you know that the loom is good from 3-pin connector to each injector because you've swapped it along with the fuel rail, I assume. What you can do is split the 3-pin connector. Using suitable gauge shunting wire you can make up little bridge wires to reconnect the other two wires (you could also just bodge this up somehow, but for the price of four spade connectors, you might as well do it right). Now take a long piece of suitable heavy gauge wire and connect it to the Brown/Pink terminal on the injector side and leave the other end free. Turn on the ignition (but don't crank yet), then connect the other end of the wire to a good +12 (e.g. jump lead from battery or the big lug on the back of the starter motor), then get someone to try and start it.

Whether or not it starts, you should remove the long patch wire from the +12 before switching the ignition off (otherwise you can feed +12 back through the ECU's switched earth outputs - no big deal, but not worth risking damage).

Cheers,
Robin

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Post by Gareth » Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:26 pm

robin wrote:Hmmmmm - if the injectors open against the fuel pressure then it would be reasonable to assume more current is required to open them when the fuel rail is pressurised.

If all four injectors aren't injecting then this could well be a fault in the common power supply to the injectors (the Brown/Pink heavy gauge wire that goes to the three pin plug that you by now must have found when shuffling fuel rails about - the other two wires are Yellow/Green and Yellow/Red IIRC).

It turns out that the Brown/Pink wire whilst logically common with all the other Brown/Pink common +12v feeds about the engine actually has its own wire back to the MFRU and there is a bridging link inside the MFRU to connect it to all the other Brown/Pinks. So there is scope for it being faulty whilst everything else is OK.

Now you know that the loom is good from 3-pin connector to each injector because you've swapped it along with the fuel rail, I assume. What you can do is split the 3-pin connector. Using suitable gauge shunting wire you can make up little bridge wires to reconnect the other two wires (you could also just bodge this up somehow, but for the price of four spade connectors, you might as well do it right). Now take a long piece of suitable heavy gauge wire and connect it to the Brown/Pink terminal on the injector side and leave the other end free. Turn on the ignition (but don't crank yet), then connect the other end of the wire to a good +12 (e.g. jump lead from battery or the big lug on the back of the starter motor), then get someone to try and start it.

Whether or not it starts, you should remove the long patch wire from the +12 before switching the ignition off (otherwise you can feed +12 back through the ECU's switched earth outputs - no big deal, but not worth risking damage).

Cheers,
Robin
Piece of piss :shock:
This will end up being something stupid like, didn't pump gass pedal when turning the key....or distributer cap wasn't connected... :)

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offshorematt
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Post by offshorematt » Thu Nov 16, 2006 4:33 pm

robin wrote:Hmmmmm - if the injectors open against the fuel pressure then it would be reasonable to assume more current is required to open them when the fuel rail is pressurised.
Very valid. So that's another thing to check - its at time like this I wish I'd kept my house with a garage... :(

Cheers Gareth - I'll check my gass pedal and distributer too. :wink: Or maybe I'm just turning the ignition key the wrong way? :oops:

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offshorematt
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Post by offshorematt » Sun Nov 19, 2006 5:58 pm

Okay then, fitted the new FPR and coil with no apparent improvement. Started playing around with the fuel lines again and tried to gravity feed the fuel line (bit aimless but I'd got a bored) but when I connected it all back up, the engine fired straight away. Obviously something has been disturbed but god knows what. Left the car idling for about half an hour where it was running generally okay, occasionally popping and farting (but it had been sitting for four weeks...). Tried to drive around the block and got twenty yards before a stall and the non start problem came back :evil:

Went out this morning - tried with a cold engine and started first time. Again idled for a while noticing that the engine starts getting lumpy/misfiring above 60-65deg. At 70deg, any throttle opening resulted in a stall and no start until the engine had cooled down again. This seems to be a whole new problem...

Also, tried to check the injector common live as per Robin's suggestion but got too dark and I think I've mangled the pins on the connector as now it won't start at all. :roll:

Firstly got to fix that, then try and disprove the dodgy live feed to the injectors. After that, its a new Coolant Temperature and Air intake Temperature Sensors. To be fair I'm now just throwing money at it.
Is it only Lotus Dealers who have access to the Lotus Check Tool?

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Rich H
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Post by Rich H » Sun Nov 19, 2006 9:45 pm

At least you have moved on a bit!

Keep up the good work!

Rich
1994 Lotus Esprit S4 - Work in progress
1980 Porsche 924 Turbo - Funky Interior Spec
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robin
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Post by robin » Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:45 am

offshorematt wrote:

Is it only Lotus Dealers who have access to the Lotus Check Tool?
You would perhaps find out more by hooking up Craig's now spare emerald with a standard 1.8K map (I have one, though Craig should have it too as it comes on the floppy with the M3DK, etc.). The emerald will show you at least the major sensor inputs that effect the running and you can do it from the convenience of your driveway, assuming you have a laptop with a serial port or USB-to-serial adapter.

I wish you were nearer ...

Cheers,
Robin

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offshorematt
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Post by offshorematt » Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:21 pm

I'll be honest - I haven't the first clue when it comes to engine management hook up/mapping etc. I'm not sure Craig would want to loan out a £600 ECU for me to 'learn' on :lol:

I'm away for a weeks holiday on Wednesday so nowt is going to happen for a fortnight. Then I'll have a fiddle again - I'll be really interested to see the effect bypassing the injector common live has.

It kind of feels like its running rich (i.e overfuelling as the temp rises) when it gets lumpy, as it starts misfiring, occasionally back firing and there's no low down repsonse - it's as if it clears itself as the revs rise.
I wish you were nearer
Ha, much longer like this and I'll be towing the b'stard to anyone who wants to poke at it!

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Lawrence
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Post by Lawrence » Mon Nov 20, 2006 2:18 pm

It does sound like a fuel fault (sorry just read all this)

As Robin suggested changing the MFRU is worthwhile ( I should have an S1 one here) just to make sure the relay is feeding the pump all the time

of course an imobiliser/alarm fault could also do this.

I'd replace the fuel pump fuse in case it has had a partial fatique break.

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robin
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Post by robin » Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:34 pm

Lawrence wrote:It does sound like a fuel fault (sorry just read all this)

As Robin suggested changing the MFRU is worthwhile ( I should have an S1 one here) just to make sure the relay is feeding the pump all the time

of course an imobiliser/alarm fault could also do this.

I'd replace the fuel pump fuse in case it has had a partial fatique break.
Not wanting to disagree with you (because you are usually right in the end ;-) ), but it seems unlikely to be the fuel pump itself cutting out - the engine only seems to run when the fuel rail isn't pressurised, so the fault seems further downstream than the pump ...

Cheers,
Robin

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Lawrence
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Post by Lawrence » Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:08 pm

yeah but.....
There seems to be a fuel flow failure when it's all connected.

20 seconds or so is the normal running time for a 3 bar to zero drop at idle.

I'm not sure yet if it's the fuel rail input that's disconnected or the outlet after the FPR when it runs. I suspect the former.

We then need to know if it will run with the return from the FPR going to a bucket and whether the cause of the flow failure is electric or hydraulic.

I suspect it's electrical and as both the injectors and the pump have relays (don't they?) then change the MFRU

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r10crw
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Post by r10crw » Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:30 pm

Since Im putting in the honda Im going to put in new relays for the fuel etc so your welcome to my mfru and the emerald as well as the old laptop i got specially for the emerald. Im only 25 miles away so let me know. Cheers Craig.

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Post by tuscan_thunder » Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:34 pm

offshorematt wrote:Okay then, fitted the new FPR and coil with no apparent improvement. Started playing around with the fuel lines again and tried to gravity feed the fuel line (bit aimless but I'd got a bored) but when I connected it all back up, the engine fired straight away. Obviously something has been disturbed but god knows what. Left the car idling for about half an hour where it was running generally okay, occasionally popping and farting (but it had been sitting for four weeks...). Tried to drive around the block and got twenty yards before a stall and the non start problem came back :evil:

Went out this morning - tried with a cold engine and started first time. Again idled for a while noticing that the engine starts getting lumpy/misfiring above 60-65deg. At 70deg, any throttle opening resulted in a stall and no start until the engine had cooled down again. This seems to be a whole new problem...

Also, tried to check the injector common live as per Robin's suggestion but got too dark and I think I've mangled the pins on the connector as now it won't start at all. :roll:

Firstly got to fix that, then try and disprove the dodgy live feed to the injectors. After that, its a new Coolant Temperature and Air intake Temperature Sensors. To be fair I'm now just throwing money at it.
Is it only Lotus Dealers who have access to the Lotus Check Tool?
The car idled ok until it started getting warm yes?

To me, that indicates a temperature sender failure.

On the Tuscan we had a failure like this - the car would run fine for a while but as you opened the throttle (usually to overtake) when it was warm it would sometimes flood the engine and it would almost die - coming off the throttle kept the engine running and it idled 'ok'.

After stopping the car wouldn't start, turning over for ages then, with a cloud of black smoke, it would catch/die, catch/die etc run like a bag of nails.

The temperature sender was faulty - it was telling the ECU the engine was cold. The ECU was then dumping as much fuel as it could into the engine and it was choking and dying. New sender cured it at a stroke.

Seems something like this is occurring here.
Mair throttle, less brake

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