Upgrade Cams... 270's? Fast road? Calling the guru's

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robin
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Post by robin » Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:09 pm

John Reid wrote:Kind of half way with the 135 head on the porting.
Indeed.
I didnt think is was worth changing the head because it wouldnt be a 135 anymore.... might sound strange.
Yes, seeing as how nothing either side of the head is the standard part anymore :-)
NEXT HGF the valves will be getting made bigger, dont see the point in pulling the head off it till I need too. The cams are only getting done because he has a set sitting there and the belts etc is coming off anyway after it threw the crank pulley.
Well, if you're getting them cheap, fair enough, but be prepared for the loss at low end - it all depends on driving style - you may never notice or care.
Like the idea of upping the revs a bit. Say I go up 500rpm, is there uprated rod bolts/valve springs/followers etc that I would need or would the stock engine bits be good enough....
The bottom end is the same as VVC which has a 7,300 RPM rev limiter as standard. PTP's ECU comes set for 7,300 limit too, for use on standard bottom end. Of course if you spend your life on the rev limiter, it's going to wear out that much quicker, but not that different from running at 7,000 RPM all day. 7,500 is the max I would consider running a standard bottom end on with standard valve springs, but I don't know at what point failure is a certainty - I'll bet it'll run at 8,000 RPM for a while - typically you'll get the piston failing which leads you to new engine territory quite quickly.

If you're going to up the limiter and are buying new belts'n'stuff, look at a manual tensioner if you can get one fitted to your head - depends on whether or not Dan wants to drill and tap a new screw hole for the M10 manual tensioner bolt.

Cheers,
Robin
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fd
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Post by fd » Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:31 pm

John Reid wrote: Like the idea of upping the revs a bit. Say I go up 500rpm, is there uprated rod bolts/valve springs/followers etc that I would need or would the stock engine bits be good enough....
I've ran a 1.8K with stock bottom end for 40K miles at 7200rpm limit and hit that limiter all the time, engine had a VHPD head on . . . the thing that will fail is the pistons, they will wear and the lands are subjejct to breaking . . . I ran the VHPD with hydraulic followers at that speed no problems.
(comparing reliabilty to a Honda :lol: )
My K series did 80K miles before I replaced anything other than oil and filters, and an alternator, 40K of that at 175bhp, with lots and lots of 4 hour KH track sessions . . .

Ain't no honda conversion that comes anywhere close to that level of reliability . . .

Don't believe the hype.

Fd

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Victor Meldrew
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Post by Victor Meldrew » Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:39 pm

Honda and reliability in the same sentence. Behave.

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robin
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Post by robin » Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:32 pm

John Reid wrote:I was considering a 2bular exhaust manifold after seeing the superb quality of the ehaust he made for me. The janspeed maniflold is starting to look a bit grotty so it wont be too long before I find another hole I think.

I would imagine Jim would know how to spec the exhaust to match the engine/cam set up. I was also thinking about ceramic coating for the manifold. I have read somewhere that it increases power as well by changing the cooling down characteristics of the exhaust gasses.. kind of ties in with the above about velocity I think.

One of the guru's manage to explain it to me in laymans terms?
Simple answer: you can get the piper narrow bore flexi manifold for ~380 IIRC - it's good for K-series engines <190BHP.

Long answer:

I'll bet Jim would be able to explain this all better ... my understanding is not even theoretical, let alone practical ...

Things to consider:

(1) Gas will travel down the pipe as you push more in from the engine end - it mostly only moves one way (towards the tail pipes) - cools down and slows as it goes.
(2) Pressure waves (positive and negative) fly around inside the pipe (like the aftermath of chucking a hand full of pebbles into a pool). They can move in either direction and travel faster than the gas.
(3) Negative pressure waves travelling towards the exhaust ports encourage exhaust gas scavenging, and also if you have overlapped cams, encourage cylinder refilling (that's because you end up with a lower pressure at the port than in the cylinder, so gas flows to equalise the pressure).
(4) Positive pressure waves travelling towards the exhaust ports block exhaust flow and discourage filling on overlap.
(5) Pressure waves of either type travel more quickly in hot gas than cold gas.

Now, whenever the exhaust port opens, a positive pressure wave is transmitted into the pipe (along with the gas itself, travelling more slowly).

For as long as the pipe retains a constant diameter and temperature (and include the actual exhaust port in this) the wave will continue.

When the positive wave hits a widening or a drop in temperature, it will reflect a negative wave back up the pipe.

When the positive wave hits a narrowing or a rise in temperature, it will reflect a positive wave back up the pipe.

The opposite is true for negative waves, but we don't need to consider this too much I hope.

The wave front is blurred by bends in the pipe, and some reflections are caused; the sharper the bend, the worse it is.

The ceramic coating is an insulator, so it allows you to keep the gas hotter for longer (and maintain higher wave speeds).

However, while the gas is hot and the wave speeds are high, any reflected negative pressure waves will have little or no effect (they cannot penetrate the advancing high pressure wave).

So, your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to construct a set of pipes that allow the exhaust gas to be expelled with minimum resistance (i.e. that offer least resistance to steady state flow, ignoring waves) and that arrange for a negative pressure wave to arrive at the exhaust port towards the tail end of the exhaust cycle and well after the initial wave has left.

For any given pipe design there will be round trip time (positive wave out to negative wave in); that round trip time will vary with exhaust gas temperature but not with RPM (much) because wave speed is a function of gas temperature not piston speed.

It follows then that there will be a sweet spot in the rev range where the negative wave arrival will coincide with the tail end of the exhaust stroke nicely; below that speed the manifold will work acceptably but there will be limited increase in scavenging because the pressure wave will have dissipated before the piston reaches TDC; it still works at least as well as the standard manifold. Above the sweet spot the valve ends up closing before the peak of the pressure wave can get back and so there is limited gain in efficiency.

If I were doing it and were able to compute all the sums I would aim for a sweet spot of at least 6,000 RPM because that's were the standard manifold becomes the bottle neck when you're running enough valves and cam to maintain air flow into the cylinder at that speed.

Cheers,
Robin
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Rich H
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Post by Rich H » Sat Jul 07, 2007 8:37 am

My car is pretty much what your headed for. Ported head (Mine is DIY though remember :)) piper 270s, std valves, small bore 4-2-1, induction kit, VVC manifold, bigger TB, CR box.....

Are you copying me? :lol:
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Victor Meldrew
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Post by Victor Meldrew » Sat Jul 07, 2007 11:11 am

RICHARDHUMBLE wrote:My car is pretty much what your headed for. Ported head (Mine is DIY though remember :)) piper 270s, std valves, small bore 4-2-1, induction kit, VVC manifold, bigger TB, CR box.....

Are you copying me? :lol:
Hero worship is a terrible thing.... dont gloat too much.. :lol:
Well it moves... might as well make the most of it....

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Post by Chopperver1 » Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:21 pm

[quote="RICHARDHUMBLE"]My car is pretty much what your headed for. Ported head (Mine is DIY though remember :)) piper 270s, std valves, small bore 4-2-1, induction kit, VVC manifold, bigger TB, CR box.....[/quote]

Richard, what sort of output are you getting for that setup. ??

I assume you don't have an Emerald or verniers

Similar to what I'm aiming at, and I to am grinding and polishing my own head !!

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