Why I don't like [what gets done to] the Rover K series and

[Shug]

I can appreciate that knife edges are probably not ideal
Subsonic aerodynamics don't like sharp leading edges, smooth radii are better.
I'd imagine that a smooth radii would give more consistent flows in more conditions.
Look at gas turbine blades all rounded leading edges and sharp traling edges.
Not sure about reflections but I don't know anything about pipe flow!

I guess the tradeoff would be that you simply can't fit the port area in if you're putting a bullnose in there. Question in that case is what's the lesser of the evils and I suppose without some pretty exhaustive (sic) imperial tests, you'll never know. CFD probably a good tool here too...?

[KingK_series]

This is an image from Cosworth USA's site showing their inlet port modification. Whilst I get your point about thinning down the bifurcation, but the "reflections" caused don't seem to bother Cosworth (totally different head, I appreciate) So, would you say that this knife-edge sharpening of the bifurcation is to be avoided in only the K series, or is it a general statement, so you're claiming Cosworth have it wrong?

I understand that's not the main point of the post here and I have nothing to question on your other points, but it is something that's confused me - every ported or 'performance' head I've ever seen has a pretty sharp knife edge in that area.

A lot of people do it....

on production heads with bigger valves the throat where it meats the port is a difficult area, but it can be done especially on K16 heads up to 32.5mm valves. Kiwiroger is very good at achieving a good radius and his superflow results are better than others who shout a lot.....

However the principal point I was making is that do this on a rare, uber expensive, desperately difficult to get MS2 and find you need to insert new valve seats - which will happen one day and you run a very hgh risk of cracking the bifurcation inserting new seats. I run 34.5mm valves with 90% throat dia of valve and do not need to thin the bifurcation like the photo.

[KingK_series]

I can appreciate that knife edges are probably not ideal
Subsonic aerodynamics don't like sharp leading edges, smooth radii are better.
I'd imagine that a smooth radii would give more consistent flows in more conditions.
Look at gas turbine blades all rounded leading edges and sharp traling edges.
Not sure about reflections but I don't know anything about pipe flow!

Exactly!

[campbell]

Kiwiroger is very good at achieving a good radius and his superflow results are better than others who shout a lot.....

I'm glad to hear this. I am living proof of the quality of his work

In fact, I think I've got some photos somewhere...

[KingK_series]

Kiwiroger is very good at achieving a good radius and his superflow results are better than others who shout a lot.....

I'm glad to hear this. I am living proof of the quality of his work

In fact, I think I've got some photos somewhere...

Yes he needs better recognition and to charge more

but also learn the Chinese gasket and the NON OE MLS gaskets he uses are not good -

[KingK_series]

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,And on the subject of head gaskets...


that's another thing not to like - that still so many people think that it the gasket that is the problem with this engine and look for non OE parts. In fact the K series has one of the best most sophisticated head gaskets fitted to Any engine, - it is not the gasket that fails, or at least only many heat cyles AFTER the engine starts leaking cylinder gasses ,oil and water

The aftermarket gaskets are poor, do not have the OE Federal Mogul technology and will fail in service, that includes the new costed down gasket used in the chinese made N series engine.

[ABZ-Elise]

Examples -

- below is a very expensive short end built but a "professional" who considered cracking liners were caused by the open topped block. In fact liners crack because the same company had continued to use the old plastic dowels, so apart from the misguided diagnosis these people decided to close the top of the block [not a bad idea in itself - that will have several advantages] by welding it up and re-machining

Going back to your closed deck post. Would this sort of liner arrangement be possible on a k-series engine and would it be any better than the normal closed deck modification that was done on the k- series?

http://www.alfaholics.com/2010/07/alfah ... leeve-101/

The engine in this link is an Alfa Nord engine that normally uses similar individual liners to a k-series.

Kev.

[KingK_series]

Examples -

- below is a very expensive short end built but a "professional" who considered cracking liners were caused by the open topped block. In fact liners crack because the same company had continued to use the old plastic dowels, so apart from the misguided diagnosis these people decided to close the top of the block [not a bad idea in itself - that will have several advantages] by welding it up and re-machining

Going back to your closed deck post. Would this sort of liner arrangement be possible on a k-series engine and would it be any better than the normal closed deck modification that was done on the k- series?

http://www.alfaholics.com/2010/07/alfah ... leeve-101/

The engine in this link is an Alfa Nord engine that normally uses similar individual liners to a k-series.

Kev.

I think the amount of parent metal needing to be machined out in this kind of arrangement will only compromise [seriously] the torsional stiffness of the block, and then you are in trouble.

In fact "joined up" liners have been made for the K - years ago but I would go anywhere near there for the same reasons, also clearly stated in the link.

The block can be closed, all my engines have been for a while, but excuse me if I hold onto the how [it is tricky, but very successful] at least until the book, otherwise some dim spark out there will be claiming credit............again.....I know he is watching...

[KingK_series]

Here was a horror, aftermarket tuning of the very stupidest and worst, designed to make the engine fail


L/E stock rods really badly opened up to fit a fully floating pin for a forged piston, but not only done with no bronze bush, done out of parallel with the B/E, ie that would have caused the piston to be rammed up the bore at an angle inviting catastrophic failure. In fact done so badly that the rods hacked up the pins in short order, - this after 750 running in miles. This is aftermarket tuning of the most utterly incompetent standard in my humble opinion -

[KingK_series]

And this by the same author

piston valve pockets opened up crudely and unevenly for bigger valves, and it seems likely no valve/piston clearance test done with 5 of the 16 valves in this one engine bent -

ugly, careless, incompetent and disrespectful of both his client and the engine - and it is the latter that angers me.

it is BUILDING failure into the Rover K series, it is not the engine that grenades, it is the building that causes failure.....

[campbell]

ugly, careless, incompetent and disrespectful of both his client and the engine - and it is the latter that angers me.

Where I come from it's considered a priority to respect the client actually. That should be the focus, though I guess by doing that, the engine would get some respek as well

[KingK_series]

ugly, careless, incompetent and disrespectful of both his client and the engine - and it is the latter that angers me.

Where I come from it's considered a priority to respect the client actually. That should be the focus, though I guess by doing that, the engine would get some respek as well

Which ever way you look at it, it just ain't gonna work

- but it is work of this caliber done soooooooo often to so many people with so many "tuned" read butchered K's that has CREATED the Honda market!

[KingK_series]

Here was my effort to rescue this engine [which was wholly scrap in my view] for an owner who wanted to get some use out of it - all done FOC BTW

inlets machined out, and machined out evenly with correct clearance rather than opened really crudely, I left the exhausts as they didn't hit, but remain ugly - again in my humble opinion.

[campbell]

Simon, I think you have to also bear in mind that Honda as a brand has a strong reputation. The Type-R sub-brand in particular is really respected (IMHO), and as a result that can leach across into areas that might not be expected.

So whilst your technical investigations, engine rescues and development projects for racing teams all give you a deep insight beyond just the badge, to the average punter with £7k to spend on an under-powered Elise, "dropping" a Honda VTEC engine in can be a tempting one-stop solution.

If there is a deliverable, comparable product based around a (competently) tuned K offering 200-220bhp, and similar reliability (perceived, even if not always real), then people *might* start to wake up to this. But enough of these installs need to be made to start to develop a following and change opinion. This will remain difficult because to many, dropping the "stock" Honda engine in there will always *seem* more straightforward than sending their broken or underpowered K away to be breathed on.

Campbell

[KingK_series]

Simon, I think you have to also bear in mind that Honda as a brand has a strong reputation. The Type-R sub-brand in particular is really respected (IMHO), and as a result that can leach across into areas that might not be expected.

So whilst your technical investigations, engine rescues and development projects for racing teams all give you a deep insight beyond just the badge, to the average punter with £7k to spend on an under-powered Elise, "dropping" a Honda VTEC engine in can be a tempting one-stop solution.

If there is a deliverable, comparable product based around a (competently) tuned K offering 200-220bhp, and similar reliability (perceived, even if not always real), then people *might* start to wake up to this. But enough of these installs need to be made to start to develop a following and change opinion. This will remain difficult because to many, dropping the "stock" Honda engine in there will always *seem* more straightforward than sending their broken or underpowered K away to be breathed on.

Campbell

Well the first thing to do is to achieve an understanding of "why" all these 'breathed on " K's break, hence this thread, then in the coming weeks I hope fresh insight will be shed on the frailties of the K20, culminating in the revelation of just how much that engine weighs, - and finally since several Lotus dealers have said they believe the Honda market is dying, for several reasons, not least the very limited availability of low mileage K20A2's , thus requiring expensive, and equally[?] likely messy engine building affecting the Honda, a proper reliable solution with the K involving a whole new generation of thought, practice and parts..... maybe, but right now I'll settle for opening a few eyes and minds to the reality of what has been happening for years and years.....