Independence

[pete]

Oh God. I'm agreeing with kenny's posts.

Something is not right.

There was an episode of More or Less (Radio 4 statistics show - who are you calling a geek?). Which tried to make sense of the Scottish/English who pays more debate. After a lot of thinking with what sounded a lot like very little axe to grind they agreed with Kenny. It's about even - Scotland neither subsidises England with oil, nor does England subsidise Scotland.

So what does that leave us with?

Less government is perhaps better (as I get older I become more libertarian - but not much more) but then smaller is also perhaps better and that might be easier in an independent Scotland.

I dunno, I hear the SNP talk and all I really hear is a lot of rhetoric or Braveheart style "Rahhh Scotland FREEEDOM" bollocks. Not just bollocks but irrelevant bollocks.
But then there's nothing much better coming from South of the border either.
The worry would be what do we replace it with - apparently Scotland (Salmond) wants to be in Europe - what in the Euro? No thanks. I was a fan but I was wrong. We cannot cede control of our economy to the mighty DM/Franc.

Salmond was on Newsnight last night and as always gave a good account of himself - but when asked what currency he replied "Sterling, or whatever the people decide we want."
Well if we have sterling then are we allowing our economy to be pegged to England's? And in which case why leave?
And if we are leaving to get more autonomy then why would we want less autonomy by pegging to the Euro?

And what's all this let the people decide? You are our "leader" what do you think we should do?

Salmond is dong this with an eye on the history books and his place in them I fancy. He is not making an economic case for this (that I have read) and politics is all about economics.

So whilst I don't think it will make a huge difference we might as well stay. If nothing else leaving will cost a few quid.

[Mikie711]

Part of the problem appears to be the Scottish mentality, we always plan to fail never to succeed. It's evident all around us, we never expect our national teams to succeed and always assume the underdog status. Brave try better luck next time as it were. Same with this independence vote. So scared of change are we that we would rather debate it to death than get of our collective backsides and make it work.
A lot of talk on here about SNP pushing the national pride angle yet on here it's just derided as an emotional angle to get you to vote yes. I fail to see what is wrong with national pride and I for one am not and will never consider myself to be British, I was born and brought up in Scotland which is a fully fledged country in it's own right and not another county of England.
Sure the timing of all this could be better, given the current economic state of the world but surely this should be viewed as an opportunity to grasped with both hands to put our small country back on the world stage rather than run and hide behind mother England and hold onto her coat tails hoping she continue to feed and clothe us.
Currently I am working in Africa, so no one can tell me how bad it can be I’ve seen it, yet even there people see opportunity even in massive adversity. And here, now we are arguing over weather or not to make our own decisions, to be accountable for our own country. Really what have we to loose, worst case is we get bailed out by the EU it's never going to end up 3rd world (it’s a joke, partly). Look at Greece, there economy is out of control but the good old EU continues pumping in tens of millions. I work for a greek company and trust me they ain’t short of a bob or two.
So what if taxes go up again, they probably will at the next budget anyway. There’s nothing surer in life than death, taxes and the taste of coke. At least we should be able to see what they are getting spent on clearer.
I disagree with Robin, smaller is better. The bigger you are the harder it is count the pennies. The UK in general has far too much bureaucracy which has to be paid for and once you have it, it's near impossible to down size it and it costs millions to run and continues to grow. A point in case is the NHS.
The armed services issue, not so difficult as we wouldn't have to be part of the save the world campaign the UK and USA seem to be on which must cost a kings ransom to conduct and there is always national service to consider.
As far as how much it costs England to run Scotland, and make no mistake AS not withstanding, they still do. Do you think they would be so against it if it really was the case of they have to put in more than they take out. If it were me and that was the case I would be trying to offload Scotland sharpish to ease the strain on my economy, think of the saving it would be huge if you believe the figures bandied about the internet. So it should be Westminster that’s pushing for an independent Scotland that is clearly not the case. They are more scared of a yes vote than we are and we are sh!tting ourselves already!!. It occurs to me that the money side of things may well be roughly equal but we export water and electricity to Englandshire at a very cheap rate which they would loose after independence. Freeing us to charge a more realistic rate, lets face it they ain't got much choice but to pay it especially for water.
Without doubt it would be a massive upheaval in just about everyway and the thought of it is extremely daunting but to quote one of Sean Connery’s lines a little revolution every now and then is a good thing and I for one believe that once the dust settled and all was said and done we would find ourselves much better off. It may take 10,20 50 years but long term it’s without doubt the way forward.
The more I travel the world the more I’ve come to realize that we are to caught up in our own self importance as a nation (UK). We no longer lead the world in anything so I think it’s high time the union is dissolved and we all see what we can achieve standing on our own 2 feet.

[tut]

The Poll Tax was a great idea, I also was paying way less than when it was changed to Council Tax, and to me it made sense that you paid a part tax on the value of your house, and part on the number in the household.

That way a single OAP would be paying her share of the services she uses, whereas these ******** who breed like rabbits would pay a hell of a lot more. If AS vowed to cut out benefits for more than two children, I would vote yes like a shot, and it might also encourage them to keep their legs together.

tut

[kenny]

Oh God. I'm agreeing with kenny's posts.

And there was me about to call into question tut's select group of forum intellectuals.

[tut]

It was just the first three that sprang to mind Kenny, as they jump in like hairy snakes if I make a slip up.

tut

[pete]

Oh God. I'm agreeing with kenny's posts.

And there was me about to call into question tut's select group of forum intellectuals.

Me too

[BiggestNizzy]

Growing up my parents were pro poll tax as they paid less so where happy, I was to young to care but my brother who had to pay became dead against it and refused to pay (they got him in the end ) Ann's parents (Red Wester as I call him )where fiercly against it and got fiendly with Tommy Sheridan - so we don't talk about it

Now I own my own house I wish it was still the poll tax.

[Mikie711]

Certainly be cheaper than the council tax we are paying now which seems to bring less and less services every time it goes up

[H8OAG]

I can't believe people are saying they like Alex Salmon. Can't be the same man I have seen on the news and met. I am embarrassed to consider him a fellow country man. He is a stupid, short sighted and bigoted little man. I'm with those who says he makes my blood boil!!!

I am genuinely concerned as to how bad things will get in Scotland if Salmon gets his way.

I think it's fair to say I'll be voting 'NO' to independence!

Sorry mate, to say he's stupid is just plain wrong. His views and personal beliefs can be debated till the cows come home, but in the matter of being a canny political operator, I think everyone has to agree he does that very, very well - for good or bad. If you think otherwise, you've not been paying attention to what he's managed to do on a party and personal career front.

Not saying I like him, frankly, I don't. Nor do I like the route he's trying to take the country down. But to say he's stupid is a bit silly.

He is not stupid..............He used to be a customer of mine way back in 1986/7 when he was an economist (energy) for RBS.
I lent him a mobile phone for his first foray into electioneering as MP for Banff and Buchan.
If it wasn't for me...............he wouldn't be where he is today

If somethings not working..................do something different

[Mr Momo]

Wow - this thread has gone ballistic - great to see.

Some more (unstructured) thoughts from me :

- Norway's oil is not State-owned and controlled significantly more than the UK's. There are international oil companies operating in a tax-royalty system, as per the UK, but the State does have a stake in most fields through the "Petoro" state oil company - they pay their way and get the tax. Plus there is revenue tax. However, for some fields, Statoil is a state-owned oil company in all but name. The Norwegians insists that the oil companies invest in the local area that is responsible for the area of the Norwegian Shelf/Sea that the fields lie in. Means that the wealth is distributed across the country.

- Norwegian import nuclear energy from Sweden in the winter, when the hydro schemes are low/frozen.

- The boundary between Scotland and England/NI would need to be established. There are recognised regulations for this. My earlier post seems a reasonable stab it this - would suggest the vast majority of oil would stay under Scotland jurisdiction. Th eboundary with The Faroes wouldn't change (why would it ?).

- We have rich fishing grounds, which are managed responsibly by SFF members - Scotland would have more control over these - this is a negotiating point with Brussels.

- Scotland has had an enviable reputation for innovation (univerities/businesses), integrity ( )and fairness (legal system)- this has not disappeared completely and would hold us as competitive for a while, as long as education was developed as a key strength (again, historically has been good).

- There have been a number of economic/fiscal studies by recognised academics. As I recall, there are just as many that state Scotland could be fiscally autonomous as are against. I'd like to see this discussed more (boring though it sounds).

- What happened with The Trams/Scot Parliament is just as likely to happen in an independent Scotland as with the UK - yes there are numpties in charge that shouldn't be (that's politics for you).

- Scotland would have to take it's share of the National Debt - what would that be - how could that be worked out ?

- Scotland could manipulate it's tax / business rates to increase business innovation and employment.

[pete]

More or Less from Radio 4 on Scottish Independence.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... 1/?t=1m47s

[Mikie711]

More or Less from Radio 4 on Scottish Independence.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... 1/?t=1m47s

So from that it appears that economics aren't a issue, we would be pretty much in the same boat as we are now.

That just leaves ermmm everything else to sort out ho hum. Nobody said it would be easy.

[robin]

Going off topic here perhaps but with hindsight was the Poll Tax so wrong? I was paying about £3-400a year poll tax I now pay £2500 Council Tax and I get fcuk all extra for paying much more.
I have moved house so gone up the 'bands' but IIRC the top band was still much less than I pay now.

Not commenting on the tax itself, but at the time it was implemented in Scotland only (and badly - it remains my only official fine despite having paid everything I owed ahead of schedule - they lost track of my payments and even though they agreed I had paid they still "had" to fine me). Politically it was a very unpopular tax for whatever reason and it was only applied in Scotland which felt like victimization and lost the Tories the vote up here for at least one if not two generations I suspect (not sure if they got any votes before because that was when had just moved up here). You can see why people would resent Westminster government for applying the poll tax only here. Since then I cannot think that there has been any particularly anti-Scotland policy implemented (though I'm sure there must have been something).

Cheers,
Robin

[robin]

P.S. Smaller is not better. Disorganized is bad. Organized and larger is better than organized and smaller - assuming fixed service count and taken to extremes it is obvious to see this - imagine 10 public services applied to a population of 10 people ... we would each have to work for the public sector to administrate one service each and nobody left to work in the private sector to pay for it.

Cheers,
Robin

[pete]

P.S. Smaller is not better. Disorganized is bad. Organized and larger is better than organized and smaller - assuming fixed service count and taken to extremes it is obvious to see this - imagine 10 public services applied to a population of 10 people ... we would each have to work for the public sector to administrate one service each and nobody left to work in the private sector to pay for it.

Cheers,
Robin

Smaller is more trackable though, more accountable. Easier to see. I know you miss out on economies of scale (but in many public services they'll have an upper limit) but you'll gain in easier to manage. Probably.
Taken to the other extreme you also get Communist Russia which was not particularly efficient in delivering what people wanted or needed. Huge volumes of what was ordered but not very reactive in changes in the market.

Anyways. Slight thread drift...