Timing belt change

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steve_weegie
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Timing belt change

Post by steve_weegie » Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:46 pm

Evening all,

Being an adventurous soul and smelling the fear of a MMC C service, i'm about to service the car myself for the fist time and would be grateful of any advice please. The only bit that's slightly concerning me is the replacement of the timing belt. From the service manual, things dont look too tricky but i suspect the car's not exactly going to be utopia to work on!

A couple of questions:

1. How do i tell in advance if i've got a manual or auto tensioner?
2. Where can i buy a cam locking tool from?
3. The service manual shows the bottom end being locked at the flywheel, but doesnt this mean the gearbox has to come off!?!
4. Are there any special tools i'll need?
5. Is it a pig to do!
6. Should i give up now and find someone to do the belt for me :oops:

Any help is greatly received

Cheers,

Steve

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Rich H
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Re: Timing belt change

Post by Rich H » Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:54 pm

steve_weegie wrote:Evening all,

Being an adventurous soul and smelling the fear of a MMC C service, i'm about to service the car myself for the fist time and would be grateful of any advice please. The only bit that's slightly concerning me is the replacement of the timing belt. From the service manual, things dont look too tricky but i suspect the car's not exactly going to be utopia to work on!

A couple of questions:

1. How do i tell in advance if i've got a manual or auto tensioner?

Tricky, dunno for sure TBH

2. Where can i buy a cam locking tool from?

A suitably sized bolt will do the ob nicely

3. The service manual shows the bottom end being locked at the flywheel, but doesnt this mean the gearbox has to come off!?!

No, but I'm not the best person to talk about when it comes to locking flywheels...

4. Are there any special tools i'll need?

Just one: a cut down 22mm socket for the crank bolt, there are a few out there I'm sure someone will lend you one (Or get busy with the angle grinder!) Cut proof arms is good, box of plasters, camera, feeler gauges if you really want to risk checking liner heights, good selection of spanners and sockets.

5. Is it a pig to do!

Oh yes

6. Should i give up now and find someone to do the belt for me :oops:

NO! :D

Any help is greatly received

Cheers,

Steve

HTH
Rich
1994 Lotus Esprit S4 - Work in progress
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BiggestNizzy
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Post by BiggestNizzy » Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:04 pm

I'm getting a bloke to do mine saves the hassle £100 notes cash and all the bits thats to fit a new head and service it. was going todo it myself but I just want an easy life nowadays.
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tenkfeet
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Post by tenkfeet » Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:20 pm

There is a timing belt change video here which may be of help even though its an MGF .

http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/group2/engines/index.htm
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_leon_
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Re: Timing belt change

Post by _leon_ » Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:47 pm

steve_weegie wrote:1. How do i tell in advance if i've got a manual or auto tensioner?
can't give you a definite answer on this - but if manual you should see a way to adjust it - eccentric center with two prongs perhaps as used in vw engines. you'll probably need a special tool for that as circlips pliers won't do
steve_weegie wrote:3. The service manual shows the bottom end being locked at the flywheel, but doesnt this mean the gearbox has to come off!?!
The gearbox will likely have a hole on the top casing covered by a rubber grommet or the like - this gives you a view of the flywheel and can be used to set up your timing. I'm guessing the manual means they've wedged something in between 2 teeth on the flywheel to prevent the crank from falling out of alignment when tensioning. If you can see a hole like described above, you could set up your cams/crank position and gently put a chisel between 2 teeth of the flywheel to stop the crank from turning - worked for me - but havent done this on your engine...
steve_weegie wrote:4. Are there any special tools i'll need?
Find out about the tensioner first. That URL has a list otherwise
steve_weegie wrote:5. Is it a pig to do!
6. Should i give up now and find someone to do the belt for me :oops:
That link posted above is pretty good (though doesn't say anything about tensioning?) you should have no problem with getting the basic timing set - good luck - doing your own stuff is so satisfying! Much better to learn about your car than pay someone else to do what you're capable of

fd
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Re: Timing belt change

Post by fd » Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:32 am

steve_weegie wrote: 1. How do i tell in advance if i've got a manual or auto tensioner?
IIRC Lotus will tell you if you give your chassis number (MMC parts in other words), failing that you need to look, in my experience most modern standard non VVC's are auto and all tweaked engines (and perhaps VVC) are manual. Autos tend not to control the belt tension at higher revs as well as manuals . . .
2. Where can i buy a cam locking tool from?
Any motor factors, partco for ex, IIRC Halfords sell draper ones, I'd get a proper one designed for the K series . . .
3. The service manual shows the bottom end being locked at the flywheel, but doesnt this mean the gearbox has to come off!?!
No, You can lock the flywheel sufficiently to loosen the crank pulley bolt using 5th gear and a monkey to press the brake pedal while you give it laldy with a big breaker bar. Don't use any other gear - it won't work, if you're bored try to work out why . . . ;-) . . . if your're confident in your handbrake you can use that too but doing that whilst under the car with it on ramps is less than clever from a health and safety POV.
4. Are there any special tools i'll need?
Good set of drive on ramps and some axle stands for your own safety, Cam locking tool, decent breaker bar (and the knowledge when and when NOT to use one - they are not called breaker bars for nothing), threadlock (NOT studlock), cut down 22mm socket, 8mm ratchet spanner makes removing cam belt cover bolts much easier (and alternator tensioner)
5. Is it a pig to do!
Not really as long as you take your time and realise that fscking up the belt alignment will probably be terminal for the engine - so treble check it and if not sure stop and get somebody who knows to help, also always crank the engine over VERY GENTLY a minimum of 2 full crank revs (I take the plugs out usually to make it easier) to MAKE SURE you have not got any belt fitting issues . . . the crank pulley bolt will be f.tight and will need to be f.tight when you finish (also use a little threadlock for safety), thi s is the main problem for most people . . . also the two 18mm headed bolts on the RHD engine mount can be very tight, be carefull not to damage the heads by using crappy tools (have seen this before). There are some simple (but difficult to describe in words) techniques for getting the belt on first time every time correctly, but you really need to see it done . . . You also should be methodical with threadlock, almost everything should be threadlocked and is at manufacture (the bolts are all pretreated) . . . people tend not to do this then wonder why bolts come undone and grenade their engine . . .

I can probably change an Elise belt in 1.5-2 hours but plan on 4+ for your first attempt depending on rusted fasteners in the wheel arches, etc . . .
6. Should i give up now and find someone to do the belt for me :oops:
Your first one is always stressful, but if you never try you'll never learn . . . but having said that it's not a 1 spanner job . . . I think it's best to help/watch/be supervised if you're not sure . . .

Fd

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Rich H
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Post by Rich H » Tue Jun 12, 2007 7:58 am

What FD said! :thumbsup

Don't do up the crank bolt by jamming No.4 piston against the valves.... It's not good for your health! (I got away with it but you might not!!)
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mac
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Post by mac » Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:16 am

Just one wee thing to add to Fd's - If you have an S2 you need to put the wheel bolts back in - other wise the hub just moves inside the disc or all the force is trying to be applied via the wee hex machine screw that there to hold the disc on


Mac
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_leon_
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Re: Timing belt change

Post by _leon_ » Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:36 am

No, You can lock the flywheel sufficiently to loosen the crank pulley bolt using 5th gear and a monkey to press the brake pedal while you give it laldy with a big breaker bar. Don't use any other gear - it won't work, if you're bored try to work out why . . . ;-) . . . if your're confident in your handbrake you can use that too but doing that whilst under the car with it on ramps is less than clever from a health and safety POV.
Why do you have to take off/loosen the crank pulley? If you do, you might want to consider replacing the crank bolt with a new one. The bolts are usually tightened to around 180Nm. Certainly make sure you find out the correct torque and don't over tighten.

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Rich H
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Re: Timing belt change

Post by Rich H » Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:42 am

_leon_ wrote:Why do you have to take off/loosen the crank pulley? If you do, you might want to consider replacing the crank bolt with a new one. The bolts are usually tightened to around 180Nm. Certainly make sure you find out the correct torque and don't over tighten.
Leon,

Crank pulley has to come off thanks to Rover's design. Crank bolt could be replaced but I don't think anyone bothers TBH, it's a big old bolt. The correct torque is 210Nm (48" torque wrench at max setting = 'king tight!) The K series and in particualr the Elise fitment is pretty straightforward but it has it's quirks.

The ususal suspects FD/Lawrence/Robin/etc and so on do know what they are talking about cos they have done loads! It is quite straight forward for the beginner but it's time consuming first time around.

HTH
Rich
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robin
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Post by robin » Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:56 am

You need to remove the pulley because you won't get the belt off/on without removing it (there is no clearance between the back of the pulley and the front of the engine).

Remember to remove the cam locking tool whenever working on the crank pulley bolt - using the brake+5th technique that Fd describes, the engine will rotate while it takes up the backlash in the drive train.

If you leave the cam locking tool in, you'll jump the belt over the cam pulleys while this is happening.

Re: the two 18mm headed bolts - last couple of times I've done it, I remove and replace these one at a time. I place a jack under the sump, then undo both so that they are in by just 10mm. Then lower the jack so that both can still be turned by hand, but that there is a big gap between the upper and lower half of the mount. Remove the one on the left, feed the old belt into the gap, replace the one on the left by 10mm, remove the one on the right, remove old belt, feed new belt into the gap, replace the one on the right, remove the one of the left, new belt in, replace the one on the right. Now jack up the engine so that the two halves of the mount touch, and nip both bolts up so that the joint will be tight. Now remove one bolt completely, clean off the old crap, apply threadlock and something to stop the bolt seizing/corroding (you can use copperslip or duralec - the latter is probably what you are supposed to use). Then you can tighten it up properly and do the same on the other bolt.

The reason for such a shuffle is that (a) it takes no time at all and (b) you never lose the alignment between the springy bit and the engine and so you don't risk cross-threading or otherwise damaging the threads.

Another top tip for threading these (and any bolts that are hard to thread) is to apply pressure to the back of the head and turn them backwards a couple of turns; once per turn you should hear/feel the clonk as the start of the thread on the bolt passed the start of the thread in the hole. Then, when you get to the point at which it clonks, start turning it the other way and it will thread.

Cheers,
Robin
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_leon_
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Post by _leon_ » Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:57 am

Got ya - cheers for that :)

Must find out more about the design. Reason why I said about replacing the crank bolt - VW often use stretch bolts that should really only be used once - not saying you couldn't re-use - but if it goes, then its not going to be pretty...

Agree with everyone (including myself!) I'd encourage everyone to try doing their own work - do plenty of reading and get your tools, then go for it - it doesn't all have to be done in one sitting

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Rich H
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Post by Rich H » Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:46 am

Leon, you have PM :thumbsup
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fd
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Post by fd » Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:23 pm

If there is any doubt over any bolt replace it . . . thecrank pulley bolt is ok for reuse but if it's been run loose (and this does happen) you MUST replace it ASAP after getting going again, because it'll likely fail afterwards . . . I know of 2 occasions where people have had that bolt come loose, have it tightened back up, then have the bolt shear . . . once was lucky and did no damage, one killed the head . . .

Ref stretch bolts - they are reusable too given certain constraints . . . but you should know what you are doing if you do . . .

Fd

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Post by steve_weegie » Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:37 pm

Thanks everyone for the encouragement and sage advice! Lots of very handy tips and tricks.... I think im going to do this lot in 2 shifts - oil, filters & plugs and my new wheels courtesy of jj this weekend (weather pending) and the belt next weekend. It'll be useful to sus things out when i'm doing the oil and prep myself for the belt change.

Shopping list so far....

BFO torque wrench
BFO breaker bar
Timing belt (auto tensioner by the sound of things)
Replacement auto tensioner
Cam locking tool
22mm socket for the angle grinder in me :chainsaw
Alternator mounting bracket (current one shot...)
Copaslip
Threadlock
Spare pair of undies for when i start the thing up

I'm gonna pop to pentland components tomorrow and see how many bits i can get from them.

I'll also try and get as many photos of the procedure as i can and stick em up on the wiki incase anyone else wants to give this a go.

Thanks again - you're all my new heros :love

:cheers

Steve

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