Spoke too soon? S1 odd noise...

Rich H · Post by **Rich H** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:28 am

Turn the engine over by hand with the plugs in you should hear a chuff as the exhaust valves open assuming the inlets are shut properly. if there is no comp at all then you will hear nothing.

fd · Post by fd » Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:28 am

Well I was wondering how you set the timing after tightening the pulley up . . . ?

It's difficult (if you are not familiar with the process) to get the belt correctly installed . . . if I had a quid for every time someone has fecked this up . . . I'd have quite a few quid . . .

The only marks you can rely on are the crank pulley dimples and you cannot check them with the crank bolt in place . . . if you used them and they were correct and the cam marks all aligned it's fecked . . . if you did not use those marks then I wouldn't be so sure . . .

The end of the crank looked fecked to me from your initial pictures . . . I would probably have studlocked on the crank cam drive pulley (the McKean bit) a day before installing the belt - sure it would not have some off again easily but it also would not ever slip . . .

Fd

timmsky · Post by **timmsky** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:03 pm

fd wrote:Well I was wondering how you set the timing after tightening the pulley up . . . ?

It's difficult (if you are not familiar with the process) to get the belt correctly installed . . . if I had a quid for every time someone has fecked this up . . . I'd have quite a few quid . . .

The only marks you can rely on are the crank pulley dimples and you cannot check them with the crank bolt in place . . . if you used them and they were correct and the cam marks all aligned it's fecked . . . if you did not use those marks then I wouldn't be so sure . . .

The end of the crank looked fecked to me from your initial pictures . . . I would probably have studlocked on the crank cam drive pulley (the McKean bit) a day before installing the belt - sure it would not have some off again easily but it also would not ever slip . . .

Fd

Thanks Fd,

I needed to ascertain whether or not something was seriously fooked, and in the absence of studlock I went for it as is...

The hardest part TBH was putting the belt back on. I had to grip the tensioner with pliers and pull it as hard as I could to the left to allow the belt to slip into place. Also, adjusting the alternator to get the drive belt back on was a royal pain too.

What I did when the cam pulley was on at first was to fit the alt pulley, make sure it was lined up correctly, then marked the alt pulley where the timing marks on the crank pulley are. That way when it was all back together I could still get register on the crank pulley.

Something may still be wrong

when are you next visiting Catriona?

Cheers,
Iain

robin · Post by **robin** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:42 pm

I assume that the engine really is turning over (rather than just starter motor spinning) and you have bent the valves, and it doesn't really matter when you did it - the thing now is to assess the damage, avoid making things worse, and get the engine working again.

Swapping the engine is a reasonably intensive operation. Fd & I spent a day taking his out and rebuilding onto a new block. Fd then spent the next day refitting it all. I had similar time spent on the RLC doing the same operation. So I would guess at least a couple of days required to do it, and a fair amount of know how too.

Add to that the cost and expense of sourcing the spare engine.

If you remove the head now and take a look inside, and then decide the whole engine is gubbed, it's a 10 minute job to slap the head back on well enough to allow engine removal (the hoist brackets bolt onto the head IIRC).

All the rest of the tasks are pretty much common (draining and disconnecting stuff has to happen whether you're replacing the head or the whole engine).

If it were me, I would be taking the head off before deciding what to do next.

Make sure that the dimples on the crank timing pulley (not the alternator drive pulley marks, yours or anyone elses, not the chopsticks, nor anything else) are lined up properly, because you *CANNOT* rotate the engine once the head is off.

Cheers,
Robin

timmsky · Post by **timmsky** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:48 pm

Hi Robin,

Yes the whole engine is truning over, I can see the cam pulleys through the o/s air intake as I turn the key.

The dimples on the crank pulley are lined up with the marks on the alternator pulley, so I know the pistons are level and therefore at that point, the cam marks are horizontally aligned.

My thought was to remove the entire engine and replace with an entire engine, not parts, so even though that may be a couple of days it would sound simpler than your requirements for Fd's and the RLC, no?

I'm talking transplant here rather than surgery....

Having said that, it would be silly not to remove the head and have a looksee.....

Cheers,
Iain

timmsky · Post by **timmsky** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:03 pm

robin wrote:.... because you *CANNOT* rotate the engine once the head is off.

Cheers,
Robin

This is going to be the assanine question of the day, but why?

If everything is lined up after it's all put back together and before the timing belt is fitted (and after of course), will the timing not be fine?

What's the obvious bit i'm missing?

Cheers,
Iain

fd · Post by fd » Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:10 pm

Aye . . . however . . . taking the head off before following 'the procedure' for the crank timing marks (which are the dimples on the pulley) is risking finding the head perfectly ok and wasting a good few hours . . .

I, personally, would not be confident in using any marks on the alt pulley, even if I had made them myself . . . perhaps that's just me . . . and I guess robin too . . . but there you go . . . a word from my experience . . .

You don't need to refit the alternator belt to see if it'll run either, it'll be fine with the belt not fitted, you only need to put the pulley back on for the 1 minute it'll take to crank it over . . . in fact in your case I wouldn't even fit the engine timing covers . . . because that all takes time and may be pointless . . . set timing, verify without the alt pulley fitted by rotating 2 revs (clockwise

) if OK fit alt pulley and bolt and try to start it - if no go :- fecked, if go - stop it, remove the bolt and alt pulley and re-assemble everything . . . all while in the raised position to access the big bolt.

You don't even need the alt pulley (or crank bolt) fitted to put the belt on or to check the timing, the lower pully will not come off once the belt is fitted, you just cannot run it like that . . . all the 2 crank rotations testing needs done without the alt pulley fitted simply because you cannot see the critical timing marks . . . nobody should do this differently . . . because it's the wrong thing to do not to check those specific marks.

Ref the tensioner - there is a way to lock it in the 'loose' position, it's in the service manyal IIRC - the pliers thing is not that way

- with the auto is it not simply a hex key (I can't remember without the manual) ?

The last thing to fit the belt to is the water pump, only at this stage do you need to worry about the tensioner - the water pump has the perfect shape to aid fitting of the belt (well there's a surprise !) . . . none of the other pulleys do . . . also you should only fit the belt 1/2 meshed with all the top pulleys initially - once the belt is 1/2 on everywhere you can simply push it into full mesh before you release the tensioner . . .

Trust me, changing the engine is much more difficult than being 100% sure that the timing is correct . . . and fixing the head is much more easy than changing the engine . . . but more difficult than the timing check

. . . I'm sure you know what you're getting into . . . but just making sure . . .

If I were in your shoes I would absolutely not be sure it was fecked . . . yet . . .

Fd

fd · Post by fd » Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:12 pm

timmsky wrote:
robin wrote:.... because you *CANNOT* rotate the engine once the head is off.

Cheers,
Robin
This is going to be the assanine question of the day, but why?

If everything is lined up after it's all put back together and before the timing belt is fitted (and after of course), will the timing not be fine?

What's the obvious bit i'm missing?

Cheers,
Iain

The design of the engine means that without the long head bolts in place and correctly tensioned the main bearings will be incorrectly loaded . . . AND . . . the wet liners, which are held in place by the head (and nothing else apart from a smear of silicone sealant), may move and rupture the water jacket seals, mandating a full stripdown . . .

Fd

timmsky · Post by **timmsky** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:18 pm

fd wrote:
timmsky wrote:
robin wrote:.... because you *CANNOT* rotate the engine once the head is off.

Cheers,
Robin
This is going to be the assanine question of the day, but why?

If everything is lined up after it's all put back together and before the timing belt is fitted (and after of course), will the timing not be fine?

What's the obvious bit i'm missing?

Cheers,
Iain
The design of the engine means that without the long head bolts in place and correctly tensioned the main bearings will be incorrectly loaded . . . AND . . . the wet liners, which are held in place by the head (and nothing else apart from a smear of silicone sealant), may move and rupture the water jacket seals, mandating a full stripdown . . .

Fd

Was never going to do it anyway, but SO glad I asked

timmsky · Post by **timmsky** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:23 pm

fd wrote:Aye . . . however . . . taking the head off before following 'the procedure' for the crank timing marks (which are the dimples on the pulley) is risking finding the head perfectly ok and wasting a good few hours . . .

I, personally, would not be confident in using any marks on the alt pulley, even if I had made them myself . . . perhaps that's just me . . . and I guess robin too . . . but there you go . . . a word from my experience . . .

You don't need to refit the alternator belt to see if it'll run either, it'll be fine with the belt not fitted, you only need to put the pulley back on for the 1 minute it'll take to crank it over . . . in fact in your case I wouldn't even fit the engine timing covers . . . because that all takes time and may be pointless . . . set timing, verify without the alt pulley fitted by rotating 2 revs (clockwise ) if OK fit alt pulley and bolt and try to start it - if no go :- fecked, if go - stop it, remove the bolt and alt pulley and re-assemble everything . . . all while in the raised position to access the big bolt.

You don't even need the alt pulley (or crank bolt) fitted to put the belt on or to check the timing, the lower pully will not come off once the belt is fitted, you just cannot run it like that . . . all the 2 crank rotations testing needs done without the alt pulley fitted simply because you cannot see the critical timing marks . . . nobody should do this differently . . . because it's the wrong thing to do not to check those specific marks.

Ref the tensioner - there is a way to lock it in the 'loose' position, it's in the service manyal IIRC - the pliers thing is not that way - with the auto is it not simply a hex key (I can't remember without the manual) ?

The last thing to fit the belt to is the water pump, only at this stage do you need to worry about the tensioner - the water pump has the perfect shape to aid fitting of the belt (well there's a surprise !) . . . none of the other pulleys do . . . also you should only fit the belt 1/2 meshed with all the top pulleys initially - once the belt is 1/2 on everywhere you can simply push it into full mesh before you release the tensioner . . .

Trust me, changing the engine is much more difficult than being 100% sure that the timing is correct . . . and fixing the head is much more easy than changing the engine . . . but more difficult than the timing check . . . I'm sure you know what you're getting into . . . but just making sure . . .

If I were in your shoes I would absolutely not be sure it was fecked . . . yet . . .

Fd

Hmmm... good points - so if it wasn't turned 2 complete revolutions, the timing could still be out, even though the dimples are aligned?

Q1 - The long crank pulley bolt will hold the crank pulley on without the alt pulley on? I.e. it won't bottom out before nipping tight?
If so, then that will be easy to check the dimples are in fact cirrectly aligned..

Q2 - once the dimples are aligned, presumably I have to follow the same steps getting the alt pulley etc back on and everything assembled - so how do I then double check the dimples are still aligned when the alt pulley is fitted? That's why I marked the alt pulley IYSWIM

Cheers,
Iain

robin · Post by **robin** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:27 pm

Picking up at the end here -

Re: 2 revs, possibly, but not by much - the point is that the right hand side of the belt pulls the cam pulleys around and the tensioner takes up the slack. So if you had some slack either between crank timing gear and ex pulley or ex pulley and in pulley, by the time you've done 2 revs, the tensioner has eaten all that slack and now you would see that the dimples would be out or the lines on the cam pulleys no longer line up or both

That's not meant to imply it isn't important - just that there is a limit of about two teeth error if you didn't recheck after 2 revs but you did at least fit it with all the timing marks in the right place to start with.

Q1 - yes, in my experience as I have always done it that way - now it's possible that the bolts bottom out just before they touch the crank timing gear, but as with the plugs out the load required to turn is small, I don't suppose it much matters. At this stage in the process I don't tighten it up at all - I just tighten it up until it can be used to rotate the engine clockwise.

Q2 - yes, once you're happy with all the timing you then remove the crank bolt once more to refit timing covers and alt drive pulley, but the timing cannot slip at this point because the belt+tensioner hold it all together (though in your case, there might be a bit of slop in the crank timing gear fitting; provided you always rotated the engine clockwise, this wouldn't be a problem).

Finally, Fd is right, if there is a hope you haven't mashed the valves, then rechecking and possibly correcting the timing before deciding it's f*cked and popping the head off makes sense.

Cheers,
Robin

timmsky · Post by **timmsky** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:35 pm

Thanks Robin,

All received and understood.

I didn't turn the bottom pulley x2 after fitting the belt, so there's a chance it could now be slightly out. Okay - first port of call is to check that and if it's out, i'll follow your above steps to reset it.

Failing that, i'll whip the head off and let you know what I find.

Tha saga continues!

Cheers,
Iain

Rich H · Post by **Rich H** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:36 pm

Iain, is this your engine?

(PS Yes the block is split in 2, and no it's not the Porsche!)

timmsky · Post by **timmsky** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:59 am

RICHARDHUMBLE wrote:Iain, is this your engine?

(PS Yes the block is split in 2, and no it's not the Porsche!)

thankfully not - wtf happened to cause that???

Rich H · Post by **Rich H** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:57 am

I dunno but it must have left a big dent in the bonnet!!

Looks highly specced though, all those shiney bits...